RSK : S30V (chipping defect)

[Larrin]

Was there a large reduction in reported problems with liner locks awhile after Mike, and later Steve and Joe's comments were origionally posted/discussed and supported by other users - yes. There was an initial large flood as many people posted support but after awhile this died down and now there is almost no discussion or commentary in that regard. Did the locks actually get better - no. Discriminating users simply looked elsewhere or relegated liner locks to less demanding use. However did this cause a large drop in the sales of liner locks - no. Does this mean that Joe, Steve, Mike and others didn't point out a significant and inherent problem - no.

Even if the defect rate on S30V was insanely high like 25% (it likely isn't even close to this), if you factored in the effect of the percentage of discriminating users, then the percentage who wrote off the steel, then the reduced amount they buy (users don't tend to buy the same volumes as collectors, and serious users even less so) it would be obvious that the total volume of sales would not be adversely effected. You really can't use popularity to argue performance in either direction, if you did you would have to accept that 420 stainless is the best cutlery steel.

Plus would you really expect manufacturers to actually make public statements about the popularity of their designs/steels being reduced anyway. Unless you have some kind of independent ability to audit their records you are essentially letting salesmens give you information on the popularity of their product.

-Cliff

So what you're saying is that even complaining has a flavor of the month club. Some linerlocks are good and some are not. Some steel is heat treated well and some is not. What do you predict will be the next flavor of the month for complaints? ZDP-189?

 

[Cliff Stamp]

So what you're saying is that even complaining has a flavor of the month club.

No, simply that as a truth is discovered then there will be intense activity around it during the realization by others. This leads to discussions and refinements. Once it becomes accepted by those involved they obviously don't keep discussing it.

The problems with liner locks, or steels, isn't as trivial as "some do / some don't". Liner locks are inherently sensitive to torque failures due to the way the force loads the lock. The problem, as Joe has stated many times, was never the inability for liner locks to be made stable, just the very high frequency that they were not, even on fairly high grade knives. This problem was common enough that many discriminating users such as Joe and Steve, moved past liner locks for tactical type use. When you get critical examination now, such as kel_aa has done, you still get the same types of failures.

This is no different than problems such as R.J. Martin has reported with ATS-34 and why he switched to 154CM. However did the world wide sales of ATS-34 drop, obviously no. Does this mean R.J. Martin was lying or exaggerating, of course not. It simply means that either (a) he was really unlucky or (b) he had higher standards than most.

As for ZDP-189, there has been no such extensive problems reported as of yet with ZDP-189 even close to S30V's multiple high frequency defects with toughness. But then again you really would not expect it to be as it was marketed as a cutting steel and never hyped for exceptional durability anyway. The charpy values from the manufacturer are not something which would lead anyone to think it was an exceptionally durable steel. It is however a P/M with a very high wear resistance which doesn't have the sharpening problems of the high vanadium steels reported by some and it also offers a very high hardness to reduce impaction and rolling. It has also tended to recieve high praise for ease of sharpening, once people realize that the grindability is horrible as it is for all high wear steels.

-Cliff

 

[Steelhed]

The best way to handle the chip in my M2 RSK? Sharpen it out, and since the chip is fairly small the chore should be trivial, as Cliff would say. I do not believe I had sharpened the M2 RSK, and I have only stropped the S30V version. I have two friends with the S30V RSKs and neither has reported any problems with chipping and one of them has used his extensively for cutting all kinds of things, including spare ribs where hitting bone is practically guaranteed. Does this mean Cliff didn't have a problem with his? No. I really think a bad batch got out. It would be interesting see if folks having problems with the S30V RSK all had knives with serial numbers in a certain range. This can happen. For example, I own a Sako rifle with a stainless steel barrel. This model had a problem with the barrel splitting. Fortunately, my rifle has a barrel with a serial number in the range that puts it outside the batch giving problems. It turned out the bad barrels had microscopic cracks for some reason. The good barrels (mine for example) do not. Manufacturing mistakes are made sometimes.

 

[mcmc]

Thanks for your informative responses guys. Since Aeromedix seems to be pretty good about taking care of their customers, I'm going to go ahead and get that backup/user/beater RSK and use it w/o fear. Incidentally, do you know if Aeromedix is planning on releasing the RSK ad infinitum, or if it might become a discontinued knife?

 

[wwells20]

The best way to handle the chip in my M2 RSK? Sharpen it out, and since the chip is fairly small the chore should be trivial, as Cliff would say. I do not believe I had sharpened the M2 RSK, and I have only stropped the S30V version. I have two friends with the S30V RSKs and neither has reported any problems with chipping and one of them has used his extensively for cutting all kinds of things, including spare ribs where hitting bone is practically guaranteed. Does this mean Cliff didn't have a problem with his? No. I really think a bad batch got out. It would be interesting see if folks having problems with the S30V RSK all had knives with serial numbers in a certain range. This can happen. For example, I own a Sako rifle with a stainless steel barrel. This model had a problem with the barrel splitting. Fortunately, my rifle has a barrel with a serial number in the range that puts it outside the batch giving problems. It turned out the bad barrels had microscopic cracks for some reason. The good barrels (mine for example) do not. Manufacturing mistakes are made sometimes.

Good point. The same thing happened to Firestone tires a few years ago, remember? The serial #s on my tires were "outside" the defective batch.
I resale products and sometimes there is a manufacturing mistake. Our reply to a disgruntled customer is, it's made in the USA, not Heaven.:thumbup:

 

[knarfeng]

Problems seem to have decreased, mainly due to people who were seeing them moving to other steels.

-Cliff

For what it's worth, there had been enough discussion of S30V chipping on the boards that I bought a Native III in VG10 rather than a Native. So there won't be any negative comments on S30V from me.

But, most of my friends would buy the Native and never recognize that it was chipping because they are not blade savvy. So sales would remain high and they would not be making negative comments either because they would never realize there was a problem. I've seen them with similarly priced knives that had poor blades.

 

[mcmc]

But, most of my friends would buy the Native and never recognize that it was chipping because they are not blade savvy. ...they would never realize there was a problem. I've seen them with similarly priced knives that had poor blades.

Sometimes, ignorance is bliss! or, actually, often. I'm into photography as well as flashlights, and the more you get to know about a certain area, the more things you end up worrying about, and also the more outlay is required to get incremental gains in performance.

 

[Lucky Strike]

Sometimes, ignorance is bliss! or, actually, often. I'm into photography as well as flashlights, and the more you get to know about a certain area, the more things you end up worrying about, and also the more outlay is required to get incremental gains in performance.

Yep...it's a vicious cycle.

 

[rbolen]

I have a spyderco native that has been prone to chipping. It chipped and I
resharpened it thinking maybe I had caused it to chip using it a little to
"rough". After resharpening and removing the chips, it did re-occur.

 

[knarfeng]

I have a spyderco native that has been prone to chipping. It chipped and I
resharpened it thinking maybe I had caused it to chip using it a little to
"rough". After resharpening and removing the chips, it did re-occur.

May I ask when you bought it?

 

[Cobalt]

There is no doubt in my mind that the "CHIPPING" issue is improperly done or misdirected heat treat. The reason I say this is because of the inconsistent reports with it. You hear about some s30v that is near perfect and you hear of some chipping while slicing cardboard, which makes no sense.

I have two Benchmade ATS34 knives that are over 10 years old. An original AFCK and a Specwar. Neither has ever chipped or been damaged and I have cut countless things with both. They are well used and they continue to cut. They take a great edge as well. What more could I ask for. Yet, you hear stories about ATS34 just like any other steel. Truth is that Benchmade got the HT down right on that steel and it showed. I also had a Gerber ATS34 knife which was a big POS. It did not hold an edge at all, felt soft as butter. The steel felt more like Bucks 425 than ATS34. Same steel totally different performance.

I have 154CM Microtech that are simply awesome as well. I am sure s30v done right will work very well, it just takes the knowhow. IMO of course.

Larrin, Satrang....is there such a thing as commercial grade versus Aircraft grade CPM steels or is there no such distinction when you order. In other words are all s30v's, 3v's, s60v's etc the same??

 

[Larrin]

Larrin, Satrang....is there such a thing as commercial grade versus Aircraft grade CPM steels or is there no such distinction when you order. In other words are all s30v's, 3v's, s60v's etc the same??

There is some ESR CPM steel, but I don't think any of that is sold to knifemakers. The regular CPM is low in impurity as it is.

 

[Cobalt]

There is some ESR CPM steel, but I don't think any of that is sold to knifemakers. The regular CPM is low in impurity as it is.

thanks, that is what I figured, but someone had mentioned that in the past, not sure why.

 

[The Mastiff]

So what you're saying is that even complaining has a flavor of the month club. Some linerlocks are good and some are not. Some steel is heat treated well and some is not. What do you predict will be the next flavor of the month for complaints? ZDP-189?

I'm one that cliff was talking about when he stated users that had trouble with S30V just moved on. Mine was chipping on a first cut on a brand new blade cutting open a plastic bag of dog treats. Then more chipping during resharpening.

I moved on to ZDP 189 and haven't looked back. No sign of chipping or any other poor behavior. It's a wonderful steel. The "Three Crown" laminate and as always BG42 have also been adequate.

By the way I still have a few S30V knives, I just won't buy any more. I know that when it works good, it works real good. For some types of cutting S30V's toothy edge works well, for others, the smooth, clean sharp ZDP or 3G laminate works better.

My latest knife I'm playing with is an S90V microtech. So far, so good. Joe

 

[Steelhed]

I just counted and I have 6 folders (all different makes including one custom) and 5 fixed blades (all custom) in S30V. I have yet to have one of them chip out despite some regular use on some and not that much on others. I have an S30V RSK. I use it all the time and have not experienced any chipping. Maybe I'm lucky, but then I think this whole thing is a bit of the old greasy wheel syndrome. As Kliff Stump would say, "If you stick something with a knife and it squeals, it might be a pig. On the other hand it might be Prudence. Hey, accidents happen."

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Maybe I'm lucky, but then I think this whole thing is a bit of the old greasy wheel syndrome.

And if you had problems would you then equally assume that your seen defect rate was representative of the population.

-Cliff

 

[Steelhed]

Cliff- Not sure what you mean. If I had problems I would report them, but then would that be instructive overall. For example, I have chipped Swamprat knives and Busse knives, but then I tend to use them harder than I do other knives, especially chopping things. In fact I have chipped more Busse products than any other knives I've owned, but then other knives are in their sheaths when the tough stuff starts.

The greasy wheel syndrome is simple. You hear complaints and you assume there's a problem, but in fact people with problems tend to talk about them whereas those without problems say nothing. The ones making complaints get the attention (or the follow-up posts), while those who sit in silent appreciation of a product well delivered receive no attention what-so-ever. You speak of representative populations, but a few folks with problem S30V knives on this forum is not a representative population. Your assumption that people with complaints voiced here represent a certain percentage of the overall knife population is hardly definitive. S30V can work quite well. I have knives made of it that work great for me. I have looked at my edges under magnification and can see no chipping. I don't use my S30V knives for hard use (like chopping heavy vegetation that might have inclusions). I have them used them for cutting cardboard, meat with bones, fish filleting, general kitchen use, opening stubborn bottles of whiskey, etc., and so far no chipping. I have friends with S30V knives and again no chipping so far. So what should my representative population be?

I do not question your experience with your S30V knives. I do think heat treat and high grind temperatures are probably the culprit here. I think S30V might be tempermental in that regard. Perhaps we should ask the custom makers if they have received an inordinate amount of negative feedback regarding S30V. I have ordered several knives from makers in that steel and so far no one has mentioned problems, and I have not sent a knife back with problems (don't talk to me about ATS-34). So no, if I am answering your question correctly, I would not assume my problems were representative of S30V knives in general.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Not sure what you mean.

In the above you argued that since you have recieved no defects it would indicate that there doesn't seem to be a significant problem. But then you state :

So no, if I am answering your question correctly, I would not assume my problems were representative of S30V knives in general.

This is an example of a biased judgement as you are letting the result of the experiment determine its validity. With such a viewpoint you can never correct false assumptions.

Your assumption that people with complaints voiced here represent a certain percentage of the overall knife population is hardly definitive.

I never made that assertion and I don't need to because I can judge on relative performance. The same people have used other steels like D2 and VG-10 with no problems which directly points towards a higher incident failure rate with S30V. They would also complain about problems with other steels if they had them so your arguement of feedback bias isn't supported. It would apply had they only had experience with S30V.

I do not question your experience with your S30V knives.

My experience with the steel has been solid aside from the two defect blades I was sent to examine and the Sebenza which I resharpened to an edge which is far more acute than anyone using S30V grinds so it isn't population representative and only of interest to users like Thom and Sodak. It is, as I have noted many times, a decent high wear stainless. Not as high as ZDP-189, but overall cheaper to work with. However my viewpoint on the steel isn't simply limited to what I have observed directly. That would be a baised perspective.

Perhaps we should ask the custom makers if they have received an inordinate amount of negative feedback regarding S30V.

Ask them publically if they have recieved a high rate of returns on any steel.

-Cliff

 

[Steelhed]

Cliff Wrote: "In the above you argued that since you have recieved no defects it would indicate that there doesn't seem to be a significant problem."

Never said that. I said, and I reiterate, "The greasy wheel syndrome." Which now that I reread it sounds stupid because I meant the squeaky wheel syndrome, which gets the grease. Anyway, what I meant to say is what I expanded on in the next post, i.e., complaints tend to be voiced whereas compliments are not so frequently expressed. This tends to bias the sampling in a very non scientific forum like this. So in other words, I have no idea if there really is a significant problem with S30V or not. I don't have a problem and that's all that matters to me.

Cliff continues with "This is an example of a biased judgement as you are letting the result of the experiment determine its validity. With such a viewpoint you can never correct false assumptions."

Please tell me how my statement "so NO, I would not assume my problems were representative of S30V knives in general" is biased. I made no judgement as I said I would make no assumptions beyond my own experience. The collorary being I would not assume my positive experience with S30V knives is representative of S30V knives in general. What I am saying is the sampling rate provided here is limited to biased posts both ways, but weighted toward the negative by human nature. We tend to complain more than we tend to compliment.

I have chipped VG-10 knives (Falkniven), but I have not chipped D2. I arrive an no conclusions one way or the other. I know D2 tends to be somewhat brittle and so I use it for certain applications and not others. I also know that some D2 knives properly done can be fairly robust, but I wouldn't choose the steel for a hard use knife.

I do believe you will find clunkers and defects in every category of knife and steel. When someone does find one you are likely to hear about it on a forum dedicated to knives. Oh, I might add the "pile it on" syndrome as long as I am talking about syndromes. This syndrome is represented by threads where someone posts a negative about a knife/steel and others join in. The opposite also happens - someone says something nice and others chime in. You should be keenly aware of this syndrome.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

This tends to bias the sampling ...

There are also many effects which compensate greatly for the one effect you noted. There is a large incentive for people to praise knives on a forum such as this one where there is direct interaction with the makers/manufacturers and this in fact reduces the probability of complaints. This is why there are always more complaints about a knife outside of where the makers/manufacturers are present and especially where they moderate.

Given that there are numerous makers/manufactuers who use S30V here, as well as representatives from Crucible who sell it, the data is going to tend to be biased in favor of the steel not against it. This comes from both people would will praise the products to gain favor with those individuals and of course there are going to be a lot of arguement coming from people from a purely monetary influence.

Again though, what is critical is that your arguement about negative bias ignores the fact that if this was the case (people complain more than praise) then you would expect all steels to have similar reports if the defect rate was similar and it isn't. In order to contend this you wold have to argue people are more likely to complain about S30V than other steels when both have seen defects. This would indeed induce an artifical increase in defects rates of S30V as compared to other steels. That is the critical point.

However that arguement basically says that there is a significant conspiracy agreement which intends to intentionally act to defame the steel. That of course is fairly absurd and no one would actually propose it and thus you have to accept that the reports are representative of relative performance.

Please tell me how my statement "so NO, I would not assume my problems were representative of S30V knives in general" is biased.

It isn't, this is why I noted it contradicted your earlier statement where you used your own experienced to refute the reports made.

-Cliff