RSK : S30V (chipping defect)

[Steelhed]

I didn't refute my earelier claim since I made no earlier claim other than we may have a piling on effect in regards to S30V. Please note I said "may." I don't know for sure. S30V is the first steel supposedly made especially for cutlery (yeah, I know that can be disputed). As a "miracle" cutlery steel it would thus stand out for criticism if anything about it did not live up to the hype. S30V has been adopted by the industry whereas other particle metalurgy steels have not, or have been replaced by S30V, i.e., S60V or 420V which has all but faded away because of problems. It may be that S30V simply has a narrower success margin for its production. In other words mistakes come fast and show up quick.

As for manufacturers and them supporting their steels, I haven't really seen that outside of some information on how it is used in production.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

S30V is the first steel supposedly made especially for cutlery (yeah, I know that can be disputed).

There is no need to dispute it because it is just absurd with even a minor reflection about the length of time people have used steels in cutlery. The idea that it is only a few years back it was decided to actually try to make a steel specifically for knives is pretty silly.

As a "miracle" cutlery steel it would thus stand out for criticism if anything about it did not live up to the hype.

Yes it was heavily promoted, extremely so and specifically claiming several times the toughness of similar level carbide stainless - so it isn't that unexpected that when problems were encountered people spoke about them. However this doesn't explain the larger frequency of failures with people who have used other steels and comment S30V is more brittle. The "bust a hype" arguement only would produce a higher than population defect rate if the majority of the reports came from people who have not used other steels and this isn't the case here for S30V.

-Cliff

 

[Steelhed]

Cliff - Okay, let's take the opposite argument. How do you explain my experience with the steel (outside of me just plain fabricating my experience). I have had zero problems with it. None. Zippo. I have hundreds of knives and I would not hesitate to use an S30V knife for many chores, in fact, I use a Bill Seigle modified Tanto as my main carry knife when fishing, and a Gene Ingram custom he built for me in S30V to fillet salmon. Both work great and I have had no chipping problems with them. I have an RSK, and again no problems, but I have had problems with the M2 version. I have chipped out 1095 production knives at such low levels of use it makes me laugh. I don't know what is going on with S30V, but I know it does work for some reason in the right circumstances.

All that said, I would buy the same knives in BG-42 if it were available. My experience with that steel exceeds S30V. So, yes, the piling on factor works both ways.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

How do you explain my experience with the steel ...

Basic math. Regardless of the defect rate some randomally selected sets will have all defects, some will have no defects and the majority will have a defect rate close to the the actual product defect rate. The only way you would not expect to see this type of variation in unbiased sampling was if the population was either all defects or no defects.

-Cliff

 

[Steelhed]

Cliff - I would accept that except I have 11 S30V knives and no defects among them. You would think at least one problem would show up among the lot. That's what makes me think we have a squeaky wheel thing going on here, and a bit of jumping on the bandwagon. You also have to figure in the Stamp effect, which means you have a following which tends to attract comments whenever you post a piece of your work. Granted, you have your detractors, but most of those no longer take the time to post contrary comments anymore (don't ask me why, it just seems to happen that way), while those who tend to agree with you will chime in. I think this bias the comment somewhat.

 

[Ebbtide]

You also have to figure in the Stamp effect, which means you have a following which tends to attract comments whenever you post a piece of your work. Granted, you have your detractors, but most of those no longer take the time to post contrary comments anymore (don't ask me why, it just seems to happen that way), while those who tend to agree with you will chime in.

"The Stamp Effect"
I like it.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Cliff - I would accept that except I have 11 S30V knives and no defects among them. You would think at least one problem would show up among the lot.

No you wouldn't. As I noted, if a lot of product is bought then you would expect to see people with no defects even if the defect rate is high, it is just simple math. This is no differnt for example than the fact that all of the Ontario knives I have used were defective. However it is unlikely that this represents Ontario's actual QC level, but I just happened to be on the far left of the bell curve, it happens.

You also have to figure in the Stamp effect...

The negative comments about S30V were actually in opposition to my experiences as it is only recently that I had a problem with it with the small Sebenza. The two Benchmade defects I commented upon were not my knives and they were reported earlier as defective by others. By the time I reported personal negative experience with the steel the threads on S30V chipping had long been started. I have also described very favorable use with the steel and have noted that a S30V knife is actually one of my primary EDC knives. Thus by your logic the defect rate of S30V should be actually higher than reported.

-Cliff

 

[Steelhed]

Cliff - So now you're a mind reader too, and a predicter of human behavior (mine). How utterly absurb. Do the math yourself (you haven't). All the Ontario knives I've owned also had defects or poor performance. I suspect Ontario has QC problems. Yes, I would begin to think a problem existed with S30V in general if I had a couple of knives with problems. I don't. So nah, nah, nah, nah, nah. you're wrong, I would. Come on, I know you have sense of humor. Lighten up.

The only EDC knife I know you carried in S30V was (or is) a small Sebenza, which you altered considerably (I don't follow everything so you may have another). You also hit it pretty hard for chipping as I recall. Yes, there were some negative comments about the steel prior to your negative posts, but it steamrolled after you posted your comments. Also, the two problem knives were sent to you precisely because they were problem knives. This tends to focus the attention on problems.

So what does this all mean? It means I tend to like S30V for some applications because until I have trouble with it myself I like to value my positive experience (call me crazy). I also value the information you and others post here on BFC. Sometimes though, my experience does not match others and when it doesn't I have to wonder why. In this case I think a couple of things are going on. The steel is tricky, and we may have skewed opinions of it right because of that and the other reasons I listed.

If the problems go away then a couple of things could be going on. Makers are figuring out how to work it and/or the negative posts will slow down. We may never know why it had problems in the beginning. Of course none of the proceeding I've written has nothing to do with the fact that I might want to off load my 11 S30V knives at a reasonable price.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Cliff - So now you're a mind reader too, and a predicter of human behavior (mine).

I can also change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.

The only EDC knife I know you carried in S30V was (or is) a small Sebenza, which you altered considerably (I don't follow everything so you may have another).

Several, a half a dozen Spyderco's, a custom from Phil Wilson, a Rat Trap, and a Green Beret.

You also hit it pretty hard for chipping as I recall.

Yes, it fell apart drastically on plywood after the edge angle adjustment and was far less durable than the other knives of similar edge geometry even when those knives were used far heavier. It lost significant sections of the edge (visible) and I had to stop the cutting because the entire edge bevel was at risk of failure. It was the worst performance I had seen in awhile, compounded by the fact that it was being outperformed by knives about 1/10 of its price. The Green Beret was also not impressive, but that isn't as much S30V as the general design and the lower hardness of the steel and the associated problems that generates, especially with the high carbide steels.

Also, the two problem knives were sent to you precisely because they were problem knives.

Well yeah, they had problems and could not sharpen them and wanted someone to confirm that it wasn't simply their fault as one of them was a replacement for a defective blade.

This tends to focus the attention on problems.

Wilson also sent his South Fork to me as well as Glesser did with several Spyderco blades in S30V, all of which had generally positive reviews. As I have noted in the above, my personal experiences with the steel are generally positive, as it being a stainless steel as basically a high wear upgrade to VG-10. However it doesn't matter who collects the data, only its quality. This is no different than listening to the arguement and not the speaker. If you actually do bias your judgements on data that you collected then a simple extension of the same logic to everyone would make it obvious that progress could never be achieved.

-Cliff

 

[Steelhed]

I guess in the final analysis (in context to this thread), I am not convinced S30V has significant problems. I do not doubt others have experienced chipping and sharpening issues, and I may encounter them myself with future knives. I have no problem with VG-10, or other premium stainless steels, and I really like BG-42. But then I like D2 alot for some applications. I have yet to find the perfect all around steel, but then that's the fun in all this. If there was but one steel that met all requirements we wouldn't be having this discussion at all. I guess we will see if the incidences of problems with S30V flatten out as makers learn how to use it better. Right now I am happy with my knives in this steel and that's the most important thing to me. The math be damned.

BTW, I'd like to read one of Cliff's sonnets.

 

[Andros]

I have a spyderco native that has been prone to chipping. It chipped and I
resharpened it thinking maybe I had caused it to chip using it a little to
"rough". After resharpening and removing the chips, it did re-occur.

Have you notified Spyderco about it?

 

[Andros]

There is some ESR CPM steel, but I don't think any of that is sold to knifemakers. The regular CPM is low in impurity as it is.

What is the meaning of "ESR CPM"? In what way does it differ from the so-called "regular CPM"?

 

[Andros]

I'm one that cliff was talking about when he stated users that had trouble with S30V just moved on. Mine was chipping on a first cut on a brand new blade cutting open a plastic bag of dog treats. Then more chipping during resharpening.

Have you talked about it with the manufacturer? I think that the least that should be done is getting you a new knife. On the other hand if all of these very unfortunate incidents were brought to the attention of the respective manufacturers, then, I think that this frequency should alert them and force them to see what is going on. We all need to remember that among the other properties that S30V is supposed to have is also it relatively high toughness. To me, this means ductility. From reading this thread though, I have observed that the chipping has occurred while performing mundane and trivial cutting tasks. In your case for instance, this happened when you cut open a plastic bag of dog treats! I mean, come on! What were you supposed to be able to cut? Just thawed butter? This is preposterous! You, as well as all others who have fallen under the same predicament, could have taken this knife to the great outdoors and trusted your life on this super-duper blade. Then what would have happened?
Furthermore, it really makes me wonder about the quality control these manufactures apply to their products. Come to think about it, I would also expect someone from Crucible to jump in this thread and shed some light. We haven’t seen this as of yet though.

 

[Andros]

This tends to bias the sampling in a very non scientific forum like this. So in other words, I have no idea if there really is a significant problem with S30V or not.

It's true that this forum is not scientific. Then again, how do you justify the fact that people tend to complain about particular steels (ATS-34, 154CM and noe S30V) while they tend to praise others (such as ZDP 189)?

I don't have a problem and that's all that matters to me.

You may be luckier than others, I can't argue with this. But, if the failure frequency is as high as it appears it is then, your case may be the next in line.

We tend to complain more than we tend to compliment.

Absolutely true! In marketing they say that a satisfied customer will tell 5~10 others about it whereas, an unsatisfied to 100!

I have chipped VG-10 knives (Falkniven), but I have not chipped D2. I arrive an no conclusions one way or the other. I know D2 tends to be somewhat brittle and so I use it for certain applications and not others.

If I had problems I would report them, but then would that be instructive overall. For example, I have chipped Swamprat knives and Busse knives, but then I tend to use them harder than I do other knives, especially chopping things. In fact I have chipped more Busse products than any other knives I've owned, but then other knives are in their sheaths when the tough stuff starts.

As I believe almost pretty much everyone knows, steels are made for particular applications. Those made for heavy duty tasks are to be subjected to such tasks and subsequently challenged more. For instance, I would expect a BUSSE being used even as a crow bar (not that I advocate that, since a knife in general is an extremely expensive crow bar and not the best tool for the job) thus being submitted to tremendous stress, while a fillet knife would see a much more relaxed application.

Here though we have cases such as that of The Mastiff's (http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4096440&postcount=74) where his blade chipped while he was cutting open a plastic bag of dog treats! To me, this is extreme!

This syndrome is represented by threads where someone posts a negative about a knife/steel and others join in.

True again. However, I think there is a reason for which this happens: In general people may be more reserved towards expressing negative observations / feelings about products out of fear that they may be woed by those who are satisfied. When someone though takes the lead to raise such an issue, others are encouraged and join too. This is intrinsic in human nature.

 

[knifetester]

I can also. . . write a sonnet

Cliff,
Could you please post a sonnet that you have written? What exactly is a sonnet anyway? Some sort of poem?

 

[Cliff Stamp]

What exactly is a sonnet anyway? Some sort of poem?

It has a particular length and rhyming scheme. The above is a quote from Robert Heinlein.

In your case for instance, this happened when you cut open a plastic bag of dog treats!

The majority of the cases are like this actually, cutting woods, plastic ties, corn stalks, cardboard, etc. .

What is the meaning of "ESR CPM"? In what way does it differ from the so-called "regular CPM"?

Electroslag remelting, it reduces impurities in the steel.

In general people may be more reserved towards expressing negative observations / feelings about products out of fear that they may be woed by those who are satisfied.

Yes, this is why if you are interested in the truth and not simple hype and flattery you don't try to supress critism and you encourage people to question what they hear and not to promote blind faith and a sheep mentality. Sal Glesser and Jerry Busse are two really strong examples of makers/manufacturers who encourage open discussion.

-Cliff

 

[samhain73]

I was one of the others with the chipping, (Skirmish)and all that was being done was sharpening on a sharpmaker. Hardly "hard use". However, it seems to be that S30V by BM is more of the culprit than others. The Striders I've owned (and own) have never given me any problems. Heat treat perhaps?

 

[gunmike1]

My Spyderco Native initially chipped out just cutting a couple boxes and plastic zip ties. These were visible chips by the naked eye, and I was obviously displeased with the performance of this "super steel". After several sharpenings I had no more issues with chipping. When I sent in an Endura Wave for replacement under warrantee I had Spyderco resharpen my Native (the shipping was already being paid, why not?) so I could again benchmark Spyderco's sharpness and to see if their method of belt sanding to sharpen may have had anything to do with this particular knife (obviously there have been plenty of S30V Spydercos sharpened the same way with no issues). Well, I just used it to cut through cardboard, thick plastic, and an extremely thick cardboard roll. I used stabbling and sawing motions, and generally used it pretty hard. No chipping to be found, it just dulled some. It actually still scrape shaves, and I am happy with the performance I am getting now. My experience does make me think twice about getting another S30V knife, as I really want a Manix for a very hard use knife but don't want any chipping issues. It would be nice if they would do a sprint run in BG 42 like they did for the CF Military so I could try out that steel. I think I will roll the dice and get the Manix because I do love the design, and my Native is the only one of the 5 S30V knives I have used that had any issues, and they have now gone away.

 

[rnhood]

The Native is also the only S30 knife that I have experienced chipping. And, also from merely cutting boxes open. However, it is also the S30 blade with the most use in my collection. So my others are not out of the woods yet.

That's good news about your returned Native performing well. I think I will go ahead and return mine it for sharpening.

 

[gunmike1]

The Native is also the only S30 knife that I have experienced chipping. And, also from merely cutting boxes open. However, it is also the S30 blade with the most use in my collection. So my others are not out of the woods yet.

That's good news about your returned Native performing well. I think I will go ahead and return mine it for sharpening.

Tell Spyderco in a letter that you have been getting excessive chipping from mundane tasks than none of your other knives have problems with. Maybe they will sharpen it and see for themselves. If it works, great, if it still chips out they may replace it for you. Their warrantee department worked great for me. I know when I first called Spyderco about the chipping the first thing they mentioned was improper sharpening, but at the time I had only used the Sharpmaker on it a couple times, and they said that shouldn't cause the problem and to send it in. I was reluctant, and after several more sharpening sessions the problem went away. By the time I sent it in to Spyderco it was already problem free. Many others have reported this, and many others haven't had that luck and continue to have chipping, just like the first post in this thread. I say give Spyderco a shot at your Native, and you will probably come out of the experience satisfied. Just be sure to include a letter explaining the problems you are having, otherwise they will just sharpen it and send it back without looking at the chipping issue.