?s about defensive blade length based on actual training/experience

I can't speak for David as I do not know what Janich taught him but from watching some of Janich's videos he seems to teach incapasitation through severing connective tissue. The goal is to neutralize the threat, not to kill, and this is done by cutting a couple of key spots on the body. He has some videos on YouTube. Check them out. Years of emergency room data will show that the humble boxcutter with its one inch blade, which is a very common weapon of opportunity, can do serious damage including making the cut to the inside of the forearm and to the tricep which when combined make an arm basically useless. A Delica will hit bone most places on the human body and sever whatever is in the way. I am curious to hear what David heard from him too.
 
stabman said:
I was doing a homeless outreach mission in Toronto on October 1st, and we came across this:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/stabbing-nuit-blanche-man-1.3787959

We were looking for a Tim Hortons that was still open (most close in downtown Toronto at 11pm), and we heard a yell.
Two of us headed around the corner; thought we might have to break up a fight.
Saw two guys standing there, one was holding his stomach.
Thought he'd been punched, till the blood started to flow...

He'd been stabbed twice in the torso (found that out later from news reports...he was to busy trying to hold his blood inside to see at the time).
I was able to keep people back while waiting for the paramedics to arrive.
He started to lose consciousness, so I loudly told him to stay awake, and that he'd be okay (I didn't know if he'd be or not...a lot of blood was coming out of him).

The bicycle paramedics got there in two minutes (one of his buddies ran off to get their attention).
The ambulance was there in 4 minutes.
The first of the cops showed up in about 6 minutes.
That's all rather quick, but it felt like hours at the time.

The guy who got stabbed was only 17, and it was a random attack; he was out with his friends for the all night art and performance art festival.
He was taken to the hospital in critical condition, and required emergency surgery.

Didn't look fun; it ruined his whole night (and at least the next few days).

You don't want to get stabbed.

Oh by the way, these things happen fast.
We were at the scene no more than 20 seconds after the initial yell, and the guys who had been involved in doing the stabbing had already run off down the street.
And it was a damn busy street too; literally thousands of people on it.

So yeah, there ain't gonna be a chorus of finger snapping leading up to the main event, where you'll be able to wrap a jacket around your arm and go into your best knife fighter's stance.
Click to expand...

Only knife fight I've been involved was quite similar. FAST & very bloody.

In a bar with friends running two pool tables all night (friend and I on seperate tables only about 10 feet apart, money bets each game) heard camotion at other table, by the time I got through the crowd my friend was on the ground with serious lacerations. I never had a chance to help (draw a knife, swing a pool cue, ... He never even saw the blade that cut him, thought he was possibly getting into a fist fight ... it was mid morning the next day before we left the hospital. The attacker had lost the game and did not want to pay the bet. He cut my friend up bad and disappeared before anyone could do anything about it.

Knife on knife, on the other hand, like many are talking about here ..., hmmm ..., give serious thought to the old proverb "the winner will most likely be the one going to the hospital". You'd better be training knowing where you can get cut with least potential debilitating damage to your body to protect & survive with least long-term damage. Be psychologically prepared that you will get cut in a knife v knife confrontation, and practice (this includes what's in you med-kit).

Anyone thinking you're gonna run up and cut off an attackers head or dominant arm without at least a stationary chopping block ..., hmmm I wonder what practice and frequency of practice is being done to get to a level of confidence on this?

Regards,
 
DavidMN0 said:
Exactly my point. Glad to see someone else knows how ridiculously impractical the idea of knife v. knife is.
Click to expand...

Yep.
The idea of duelling with matching weapons is long dead...much like many of those who did it.

Using any tool you have on you to stay alive is a good idea though, and that is the basis for the thinking of MBC and most sane systems of defense.

As for duels, look through some of the old time fight manuals, and there are illustrations of both people killing each other at the same time with swords...I guess skewering each other to death was considered a win sometimes when defending matters of honour.


Planterz said:
I wouldn't recommend it.
Click to expand...

I'll tell you one thing...the anti-stab vest I was wearing seemed to be a really smart thing to be wearing all of a sudden. :D
When you're surrounded by dozens of people while at the scene of a stabbing, the armour feels really, really good.

It also felt really good to leave once the cops got there; not a relaxing place to be.
 
So much for being a Spyderco thread..

Now its a Stabby Stabby thread...
 
Spey said:
Only knife fight I've been involved was quite similar. FAST & very bloody.

In a bar with friends running two pool tables all night (friend and I on seperate tables only about 10 feet apart, money bets each game) heard camotion at other table, by the time I got through the crowd my friend was on the ground with serious lacerations. I never had a chance to help (draw a knife, swing a pool cue, ... He never even saw the blade that cut him, thought he was possibly getting into a fist fight ... it was mid morning the next day before we left the hospital. The attacker had lost the game and did not want to pay the bet. He cut my friend up bad and disappeared before anyone could do anything about it.

Knife on knife, on the other hand, like many are talking about here ..., hmmm ..., give serious thought to the old proverb "the winner will most likely be the one going to the hospital". You'd better be training knowing where you can get cut with least potential debilitating damage to your body to protect & survive with least long-term damage. Be psychologically prepared that you will get cut in a knife v knife confrontation, and practice (this includes what's in you med-kit).

Anyone thinking you're gonna run up and cut off an attackers head or dominant arm without at least a stationary chopping block ..., hmmm I wonder what practice and frequency of practice is being done to get to a level of confidence on this?

Regards,
Click to expand...
That's quite frankly the risk you take when you try to hustle at pool, you play dirty you may just end up on the wrong side of things food for thought.
 
Jamesh Bond said:
Vitals will not reliably STOP your attacker. Despite what what the movies show, or what Applegate wrote, people do not burst into flame or fall over and stop moving just because they're bleeding out, which is how vital strikes kill (with the exception of the brain). But they DO get a xtremely pissed off knowing they're gonna die. So even if you severed an aorta somehow, and had say 15 seconds to wait for the guy to die, consider how long that 15 seconds lasts in life or death.

Kool-aid unfortunately continues to reign supreme.

P.S. Ballsy to call out a veteran moderator like that. Wonder how long it'll take to bleed out from that one. . .
Click to expand...

I hesitate to tell this story, because I wasn't the one involved, my statements are what I remember told to me by my friend. My friend, who sadly went through this ordeal has passed away a few years ago from cancer at WR in Bethesda.

While stationed in Germany in the 80's (American soldier), he was on his way to a bar with some fellow American soldiers. Another group of American soldiers was on their way back from a bar. One of the soldiers in the returning group took out his knife, and stabbed him three times, each time aiming for a vital organ. If I remember correctly, one strike to the heart, one to the brachial artery, and I can't remember if the third was a liver shot or femoral artery shot.

My friend, after being stabbed three times beat him down and knocked him out. He was proficient in Tae Kwon Do, which is interesting to me, because in between his first and second duration of military service, he dismissed Tae Kwon Do and pursued BJJ and Muy Thai. This was when he was trying to get into UFC (back when it was run tournament style; before Dana White). Anyway, he told me that the doctor said that every stab came within an inch of the target, and he was lucky to be alive.

He also told me that because of all those action movies where the hero insists on not taking pain meds during stitches in the 80's, he told the doctor not to use anesthesia for his stitches. He would say, with a laugh, that was something he would never do again. My friend received an honorable discharge, worked outside of military circles for a few years, found a way to get accepted to college even though he didn't qualify academically, graduated, and later reenlisted.

If my story went off the main subject here and there, I apologize, but being a good friend, I feel obligated to give a more humanistic tone to the story. The reason I bring this up, is that even with the training, the equipment, and opportunity, things don't always go as planned... in this case, to the benefit of my friend.
 
Everyone talks as if someone rampaging through a mall with a knife is a laughable scenario, but didn't it happen fairly recently in Minnesota? The knife attacker was killed by off-duty cop only after the terrorist stabbed multiple people (including kids).

I used to think that knife attacker scenarios were a far fetched and frankly, a little silly. Not anymore.
 
DavidMN0 said:
No offense dude, but if someone is stabbing people to death, the last thing you want to do is get into a knife fight. That's what guns are for.


Knife fights are brutal, and rarely have winners, if ever.
Click to expand...

It depends on what you're calling a "knife fight". Personally, I always expect every encounter to have weapons present, so every fight is a "knife fight". Knife duels, on the other hand, are stupid, but mostly just seen in movies.

The defensive place for a sharp is at very close range. If you have more distance, disengaging or using a ranged weapon is the way to go. We should carefully evaluate our actual needs with regards to defensive blades. Winning for us doesn't mean leaving an attacker in pieces, but it does mean us going home largely intact. If I am on the ground being choked, and I cut my way free, I have indeed "won a knife fight", and probably did it with only minor bruises from being knocked down and choked.

With that in mind, practically any sharp with a decent handle is enough knife. The ARK, for instance, was designed to be a defensive blade large enough for a secure grip, but compact and light enough that an already overburdened deployed US service member would be willing to carry it. It doesn't take a lot of blade to cut someone's hand off you.

Now, sure, if I'm wearing the appropriate clothing and in the right place, I may carry my Manix 2 XL, but there's just no reason to carry a larger folder than that, and if someone wants more, I suggest exploring other options (cane, OC spray, CCW, etc).

Years ago, I wrote an article about "The Daily Carry Blade". IIRC, I suggested a one-handed opener with 2.5-4" blade, a pocket clip, and a strong lock. The Native 2 LW was given as a great example.

John Shirley
 
My concern would be locking a folder open. Everyone has opened their knife in practice enough times to do it by reflex during a normal day but if you're on the ground trying to work free it's not a sure bet.

I'm thinking something like a Street Beat or the ARK or the Ronin carried weak side IWB would be a good choice.
 
I'm hoping Spyderco will change the rivet spacing on the ARK sheath at some future date to allow mounting a G Clip for IWB/OWB carry.

(ETA) I have a handmade ARK with sheath set up at an angle that works for either crossdraw or a very quick same-side draw.
 
Last edited:
Spectre said:
I'm hoping Spyderco will change the rivet spacing on the ARK sheath at some future date to allow mounting a G Clip for IWB/OWB carry.

(ETA) I have a handmade ARK with sheath set up at an angle that works for either crossdraw or a very quick same-side draw.
Click to expand...

That would be huge, paired up with the Sypderedge rumor.
 
AmosPaul said:
Everyone talks as if someone rampaging through a mall with a knife is a laughable scenario, but didn't it happen fairly recently in Minnesota? The knife attacker was killed by off-duty cop only after the terrorist stabbed multiple people (including kids).

I used to think that knife attacker scenarios were a far fetched and frankly, a little silly. Not anymore.
Click to expand...

In recent years, there have been some extremely brutal mass knife attacks in China. No, not silly at all. A lot of Monday-morning quarterbacks like to say what they would do in such a situation, but in reality nobody really knows unless or until they are unlucky enough to have to find out for real.

Jim
 
James Y said:
In recent years, there have been some extremely brutal mass knife attacks in China. No, not silly at all. A lot of Monday-morning quarterbacks like to say what they would do in such a situation, but in reality nobody really knows unless or until they are unlucky enough to have to find out for real.

Jim
Click to expand...

So true. Personally, I would also consider the possibility of using the handle of the knife as a bludgeoning or impact tool as well.
 
Spectre said:
Years ago, I wrote an article about "The Daily Carry Blade". IIRC, I suggested a one-handed opener with 2.5-4" blade, a pocket clip, and a strong lock. The Native 2 LW was given as a great example.

John Shirley
Click to expand...
Link?
 
Spectre said:
If I am on the ground being choked, and I cut my way free, I have indeed "won a knife fight", and probably did it with only minor bruises from being knocked down and choked.
Click to expand...

What you described isn't a "knife fight".

A knife fight is a fight between two people, both armed with bladed weapons. You described a fight involving a single knife. Yes, knives are really only practical as an attacking weapon or as a last resort. I'd never go to a knife first.
 
A good knife is one you can access quickly/easily without even looking or fumbling about. And sharpness counts IMO. Figure it has to go thru clothes, denium or a jacket before it does it's job.

I had a shady, drunk (known drug head) here locally in a 700 person town try something the other night. I got done eating, and walked outside for a smoke. He was out there, and told me he was gonna "Give me a limp." I haven't' done anything to him or anything? I was about 10 feet away from him when I casually but quickly pulled my Raven 2, and spydi flicked it open... twisted it in the light (night time) so He saw me pull it out. He quickly decided he didn't want any part of me. He was like, "owe your pulling weapons huh, I'm telling the local cops." I replied... "Well you're the one making threats? Go ahead and tell the Cops... I sharpen their knives for them. They know I always carry a blade; you Dummy!" Moral of story, you never know who's on what, or what their thinking; But a good knife is worth every penny!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top