S30V disadvantages?

[Satrang]

In my metallurgical opinion, there are two general things that need to be addressed before any high vanadium grade can be fully utilized for cutlery.
1. Most abrasives will not cut vanadium carbide. Normal sharpening by a normal person with aluminum oxide or silicon carbide abrasives will not fully optimize sharpness. Until the abrasive companies recognize this and make higher hardness abrasives available to the average cutlery consumer, this issue will remain. The diamond stones and such are the first step in solving this problem.
2. When the commercial manufacturers put on the final edge, more care has to be taken so heat is not generated, thus damaging the edge. This entire forum has too many people who have essentially removed the factory edge and "fixed" the minor chipping and sharpness issues. This means the material is heat treated properly, but something was done during the final edge formation to reduce the properties of the edge. If there were something wrong with the material, the sharpness would not change with re-profiling, etc.

This thread is a perfect example of the direction that abrasives and the understanding of abrasives needs to go.

 

[logo]

Is the Cabela's D2 that much better than the 440C? Would I even notice?

It depends - on what You consider.

Edge holding - D2 hiiiigh over 440C.

I could notice it, when I cut big cardboard (thick) boxes in which my new furniture came.

With my Cabelas'-Griptilian I could cut two-three times so long as with "normal" 440C 550-Grip before it begun to rip instead of to cut.

Sharpening - 440C is "user friendlier" in this aspect.

 

[A Dogs Best Friend]

I recently sent a S30V blade to Jeff Clark who is one of the most knowledge people on the forums in regards to sharpening. His perspective on it supported one of the common positions in regards to obtainable sharpness. Calling such comments "nonsense" just underwrites your own arguement.

The above comment was in regards to my post. First, I'll state my opinion as I see fit. I made no criticism of any person or opinion in particular. Just that I felt that criticism of S30V in general was unwarranted and nonsense, IMO. It's your right to disagree, as it is mine to disagree with your opinion. As to why you seemed to take it personally I haven't got a clue.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I made no criticism of any person or opinion in particular.

Right, you refered to all of them as being foolish, unintelligible, and insolent, that is what nonsense means. Stating your experience is one thing, condeming others is different, especially when you do it so uniformly so as to tar all such posters under the same brush.

A number of people have stated after using S30V side by side with blades in D2 and VG-10 they prefer the other steels, others have noted excessive chipping in S30V, problems with sharpening, etc. .

Attempting to underwrite these complaints in value does nothing productive and simply promotes possible defective products. Such complaints should be highlighted, not shadowed, to improve performance as a whole.

Not to mention of course that vague statements have little information content and are just inflammatory. If you on the other hand actually addressed specific complaints and argued with conclusions drawn from it, then a productive discussion could evolve.

Recently, on two occasions when individuals complained about the performance of S30V knives I asked for more detail and we discussed it in email. With one poster I actually had a look at the knife, for the other we discussed possible solutions.

In both cases it is likely that those individuals may change their opinion of S30V after giving it another chance. Had I instead just dismissed their posts, and publically asserted they were nonsense - well I doubt anything positive would have come of it.

-Cliff

 

[conan]

Cliff,

I read all of your posts with great interest. I am confused about one comment you have posted more than once now -
"Crucible promoted the steel(CPMS30V) based on ease of heat treating,".

There must be some confusion concerning this point because I was not aware that CPMS30V was being promoted based on ease of heat treating. Could you elaborate ?

 

[Cliff Stamp]

... I was not aware that CPMS30V was being promoted based on ease of heat treating.

This is from an early article by Phil Wilson who works closely with Crucible :

"straightforward heat treating that can be done in a furnace without special controls or an ultra-high heat capacity"

He has also been rehardening blades by simply taking them up to critical and quench/temper without a full anneal, after duscussing it with Crucible as it is a very "forgiving" steel.

There are other similar remarks by other makers in the first year or so of its release, its ease of heat treating and its much higher machinability and lower cost of working compared to S90V were among its promoted aspects.

-Cliff

 

[Stockman]

A list can also be made of makers that didn't switch, Spyderco still offers other steels, they didn't replace the entire line, and if you do some reading you can find people who prefer the BG-42 Sebenza's, VG-10 Spyderco's, etc. .
-Cliff

Yes, Spyderco do use other steels, but use S30V on all of their premium knives, some of which ie, Paramilitary, Chinook II and the Manix you have given worthy praise to in your own reviews. Never read anything detrimental about S30V in those comprehensive reviews of yours.
Back to my original point about these leading manufacturers utilising S30V as their premium steel, have they got it wrong Cliff - Yes there are other manufactures who don't use it, but does this then conclude Spyderco, Benchmade, Reaves, Strider etc etc have got it wrong !!

 

[Carlos]

Yes, Spyderco do use other steels, but use S30V on all of their premium knives, some of which ie, Paramilitary, Chinook II and the Manix you have given worthy praise to in your own reviews.

Well, on all of the premium knives made in the US. Premium knives made in Japan still feature VG-10. Spyderco has knives being manufactured all over the world, and they will typically use the best stainless steel that is locally manufactured (within given price-point targets). Hypothetically, the upcoming test runs with ZDP-189 could potentially lead to ZDP-189 replacing VG-10 as their premium Japanese steel. This is not a prediction, just a possibility.

 

[Blop]

I don't know much about S30V, but I'm considering changing my minigrip order to a ritter minigrip w/t S30V (if only because I hate the black blade on the D2 model...). Anyone have any problems with S30V, or prefer D2 over it?

Between these two, D2 is less stainless. BM offers S30V in a hardness between 58 to 60 HRC and D2 between 59 and 61 HRC. If it were just for the possibility of a harder blade: D2 (but you can´t be sure).

I am not sure how they compare on toughness but would not expect much of a difference.

Edge chipping can apear on D2 aswell as on S30V so from that aspect there is no insurance because both contain a lot of carbides just S30V is promoted to have very small ones.

Both blades tend to a rougher edge after a week of edc work.

Take the knife you like to see more.

 

[SIFU1A]

i have had no probs with the 4 S30V knives i own (2 spyderco ATR, BM 630 & a MT) and i use 1 ATR all the time, i edc it.

i dont know that its any better than M2/D2/etc but it works fine for me.

if it sucks thats odd as a lot of folks use it now, a few yrs back it was the bomb and only available on customs.

 

[nenofury]

When compared to D2, every stainless is inferior in every way except for stain and rust resistance.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

...does this then conclude Spyderco, Benchmade, Reaves, Strider etc etc have got it wrong

They are certainly "wrong" in many respects. For example liners are still used as locks when there are far more stable locking systems - liners still sell though and not everyone needs or even wants the higher performance. Based on the sheer volume of liners vs axis for example you would conclude the axis lock is inferior - so popularity can't be used in such a manner.

Are there better steels for some of those knives, yes, as noted S30V is a cheaper alternative to S90V, it was introduced because it would be easier for makers to work and finish, not actually be superior. For heavy tactical knives a steel with more flexibility would be a better choice. I would not use stainless at all on knives meant for heavy prying or impacts.

Based on the knives I have in S30V, it is a solid high carbon stainless, certaintly not at the top in many respects, not in edge holding and nothing outstanding in toughness. I have not seen the extensive problems of chipping and dulling that a lot of people are reporting, however just because I don't see it personally doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

I have talked to a lot of people who have problems with it, and continue even after sharpening, and see it again and again on multiple knives. Since I have seen otherwise the steel can obviously be solid, what I don't understand is why these problems are more common, you don't find the same level of reports about VG-10 in Spyderco's for example.

Benchmade had its share of problems with its ATS-34, so it doesn't surprise me that you would see similar issues with S30V from them, but it is interesting that there seems to be either more variance in the heat treating result or just the base steel. I am leaning towards the latter based on some recent comments with makers who actually do their own heat treating.

For awhile I figured maybe it was simply promotion as in with the insane level of hype about S30V being tool steel class it was expected that you would hear of more problems with it as maybe more people are actually using it, consider Ritter's comments about batoning for example. But looking over the complaints they are basically very mild use, soft woods, cardboard and the like.

When compared to D2, every stainless is inferior in every way except for stain and rust resistance.

Have you tried BG-42, S90V or S30V at 62-64 HRC, or ZDP-189 at 67.5 HRC?

-Cliff

 

[nenofury]

Have you tried BG-42, S90V or S30V at 62-64 HRC, or ZDP-189 at 67.5 HRC?

-Cliff

No. Your point?

 

[Cliff Stamp]

They are not inferior in every way aside from corrosion resistance.

-Cliff

 

[nenofury]

They are not inferior in every way aside from corrosion resistance.

-Cliff

How are BG-42, S90V or S30V at 62-64 HRC, or ZDP-189 at 67.5 HRC better than D2 or any other good carbon steel?

What stainless is better at edge holding, ease of sharpening, and toughness, then D2, A2, 1095, 52100, etc??

 

[Cliff Stamp]

How are BG-42, S90V or S30V at 62-64 HRC, or ZDP-189 at 67.5 HRC better than D2 or any other good carbon steel?

Because they are way harder with a higher wear resistance. It isn't like 1095 at 58 HRC will cut more rope/cardboard than S30V at 62/63 HRC.

What stainless is better at edge holding, ease of sharpening, and toughness, then D2, A2, 1095, 52100, etc??

Differentially tempered 52100 is a great work steel for chopping and such, but isn't close to maximal for light cutting.

1095 would be hard to match in stainless if it is ran ~65/66 HRC, but almost no one does. ZDP-189 should be able to exceed it even there though assuming they actually get the hardness they promote.

A2 isn't high in regards to edge holding, D2 is significantly better than it, and 52100 for light work, none of them would rivial the steels I mentioned at the hardness I listed for light cutting.

There are lots of carbon steels that would of course, M2 at 65 HRC, or CPM-10/15 V at 64/65 HRC, or to be really extreme one of the CPM REX's at ~72 HRC.

-Cliff

 

[Don M]

I have a BG-42 blade (Bos HT) that easily outlasted my D2 blades in cardboard cutting tests. For that matter, an S30V blade (Bos again) also outlasted the D2.

D2 is NOT universally better than ALL stainless steels in ALL regards except stain resistance. Edge geometry and heat treat make all the difference, which is how I explain the results I got.

If all the blades had the same edge geometry and had been "optimally" heat treated, the results may have been different. But in the real world you never have that kind of uniformity between knife models and manufacturers, so just because a knife has a D2 blade does not mean it is superior to one that has BG-42 or S30V.

BTW, I have had more problems sharpening the D2 than I do with the BG-42 or S30V. Back to geometry and heat treat again.

 

[nenofury]

Because they are way harder with a higher wear resistance. It isn't like 1095 at 58 HRC will cut more rope/cardboard than S30V at 62/63 HRC.

Differentially tempered 52100 is a great work steel for chopping and such, but isn't close to maximal for light cutting.

1095 would be hard to match in stainless if it is ran ~65/66 HRC, but almost no one does. ZDP-189 should be able to exceed it even there though assuming they actually get the hardness they promote.

A2 isn't high in regards to edge holding, D2 is significantly better than it, and 52100 for light work, none of them would rivial the steels I mentioned at the hardness I listed for light cutting.

There are lots of carbon steels that would of course, M2 at 65 HRC, or CPM-10/15 V at 64/65 HRC, or to be really extreme one of the CPM REX's at ~72 HRC.

-Cliff

Points taken. But I'm talking about overall usefullness in a knife. Stainless can exceed in certain tests but real world use would destroy a knife that hard and how many hours would it take to sharpen it after a suffering a chipped edge or one that is simply worn? Perhaps my statement was harsh, but the sentiment is valid. If corrosion/rust resistance isn't an issue, there is no reason to go stainless.

Your comments about 52100...are you talking stock removal knives or forged? I would think a forged and differentially treated knife of 52100 would be able to survive almost anything.

 

[nenofury]

I have a BG-42 blade (Bos HT) that easily outlasted my D2 blades in cardboard cutting tests. For that matter, an S30V blade (Bos again) also outlasted the D2.

D2 is NOT universally better than ALL stainless steels in ALL regards except stain resistance. Edge geometry and heat treat make all the difference, which is how I explain the results I got.

If all the blades had the same edge geometry and had been "optimally" heat treated, the results may have been different. But in the real world you never have that kind of uniformity between knife models and manufacturers, so just because a knife has a D2 blade does not mean it is superior to one that has BG-42 or S30V.

BTW, I have had more problems sharpening the D2 than I do with the BG-42 or S30V. Back to geometry and heat treat again.

Couldn't agree more. Heat treat and geometry are key. Which is why it depends on manufacturer. I would imagine a Sebenza in S30V is going to be superior to most off the shelf Beckers, but I bet Chris Reeves best efforts in D2 would surpass his best S30V blades.

 

[A Dogs Best Friend]

Right, you refered to all of them as being foolish, unintelligible, and insolent, that is what nonsense means. Stating your experience is one thing, condeming others is different, especially when you do it so uniformly so as to tar all such posters under the same brush.


Attempting to underwrite these complaints in value does nothing productive and simply promotes possible defective products. Such complaints should be highlighted, not shadowed, to improve performance as a whole.

First, the definition of nonsense is a statement, idea or behavior that is foolish or ridiculous. The term insolent does not apply to the word nonsense. Ridiculous is the term I had most in mind. And I was stating my experience, which is what we all have. Our experiences are that from which we draw our conclusions. I think you have a problem with my having simply disagreed with your self-vaunted opinion. Perhaps you thought I was being insolent by simply disaggreeing with you.

Second, I think the word you want is 'undermine,' not underwrite. You ought to make sure you understand your terms before you use them so freely and often. And I've noticed you seem to so often find fault with certain products more than others. This is curious. Also, who, besides yourself, declared you to be such an expert?

You said to remove all comments from any person who has never had a problem. Or any person who has never found fault with a particular manufacturer. Very curious, again. Why should we ignore those experiences? If someone has had such positive, flawless experiences from certain products or makers shouldn't those experiences be part of the mix?

You also said the statement "S30V's performance can vary widely depending on the heat treat" is nonsense and inflammatory. How so, when this statement just presents a general fact about this material. Is it untrue? If so, then how is it untrue? Be specific and not so general, as this is the criticism you leveled at me. And the above statement is not inflammatory, as it just presents what happens to be the case. I personally find your summary dismissal of other people's opinions to be inflammatory.

By the way, this post is personal criticism. If you value free and open discussion so much, then don't be so defensive when others disagree with you. You can now be rightly offended.