S30v steel knives?

It is hard to compare, if it is based on Crucibles Datas. They give information based on different hardness.

M2 in knifemaking ranges under the typical hardness as a tool steel. So it is hard to say if it is tougher or as tough as D2.

S30V is used with HRC 58 more or less. So, nothing new if hardness in stainless steels is asked. But i agree, it takes a fine homogeneous edge. Not as fine as pure carbon steels, but finer as f. e. ATS 34.

I agree, surely a super high end steel, should be used for thin blades on folders. Can´t tell, if it right or overbuildt for heavy fixed.
 
Originally posted by Steve-O
Does this mean that my knives in CPM420V are worth less now?


Steve-O
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Yes, they're all trash. Send them to me and I will dispose of them properly - Lee
 
I have sharpened and used several BM in M2 and other knives in S30V. I have two sons who have BM's in M2 and I usually get the job of sharpening them. In my experience, M2 has a tendency to be brittle and chip easily, especially if sharpened to 17-19 deg. Because of this, I have started using 25 deg. on all M2's that I sharpen. I tried 20 deg, but still had chipping problems with one BM of mine and one that one of my sons has.
I have not had any problems with S30V that is tempered at RC60, in chipping or otherwise. The Buck/Mayo 172, which Buck says is at 59.5-60 RC was sharpened to approx. a 17 deg. bevel from the factory. I have sharpened and used three of these knives and have seen no chipping in them. I also sharpened and used a custom, in S30V, that an individual was having problems sharpening. The maker claimed that the knife was at RC60. This fellow was trying to hand sharpen this on one of the double grit corborandum(sp) stones. Talk about a multi convex edge!!, he had it.
 
I've got several of R.J. Martin's knives in S30V(Rockwell 60), and I have had no problems with chipping. These knives are ground thin too.

I like S30V. I think it's some great stuff.
 
The advanage and disadvantage of M2 comes from he amount of large and small carbides.

The PM metals are named to have a finer and homogenous grain. The S60V and S90V seemed to be too overloaded with carbides, herefor the S30V is a right step back.

It surely is the hype in stainless.
 
I did a lot of research into S30v before committing to it but now all of my knives will be in this steel. It's toughness and stain resistance are extermely good especially when not hardened too much, I prefer Rc 58-59. The steel has enough vanadium to really hold an edge but not so much as 440v (about half as much), so it is not quite so difficult to grind or to sharpen.
Towards the end of the year , I'll be introducing a knife in a limited series which will be produced for me in the US and marketed exclusivly by myself. I chose s30v for the blade because I believe that, despite the higher cost for the raw material as well as for the processing, it is probably the best steel now available for a tough, using knife.
 
For what its worth I'm sold on s30v.I have been usin a Simonich Raven for around a year now and like its performance better than any other super steels I have used.I have dug ,skinned ,fileted and chopped and it holds a surprisingly good edge.It also isnt hard to resharpen,easy in fact.I also like the fact that the steel wont roll as easily at the edge as some others will.I have had edge rollers roll way to easily,s30v wont do this it doesnt seem in my experience.
 
Good to hear another insight, another view from a maker... thanks for posting, Bob Terzuola.

~~~~~~~~~~

I have 2 RJ Martin folders in S30V at Rc60. RJ is a maker, he is a metallurgist by degree I believe, and does his own heat treating.

One of the two folders (Q40) has seen a fair amount of use. At one point, while out of town, I cut several pieces of some fairly stout solid core wire (maybe 10ga? ... not stranded, solid) with it since that was all I had with me. Hard enough on the edge that it kind of put a small area of "wrinkle" in the edge... didn't roll the fine edge over per se, kind of a more significant wrinkle, edge bent a bit in two directions (best I can describe w/o pics). No chipping. Edge wrinkle sharpened right up, right out, little effort, no damage. Seemed tough enough. I.e., pretty damned good.

Of course I can't say this for certain without doing same cutting side by side, but this wire cutting could well have chipped the ATS-34 and maybe even the M2 blades I've used for so long.

Therefore, it would be my opinion that this quote...
Originally posted by Scott Dog At RC 60 S30V is brittle.
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... is pretty much overstated.

It's hard to argue with what a competent maker chooses for a hardness level for a given steel ... i.e. there are variations in heat treat methods and capabilities, batch sizes, quenching method, cryo or not, tempering temps/times/multiples, ending toughness, etc. Certainly hard to debate hardness without a bunch of side-by-side testing.

I would suggest that a custom maker who does his own heat treating in small batches probably has a better level of control over the outcome, and may be able to better perform a few little "tricks", than a big batch heat treater, even a very competent dedicated and meticulous one like Bos. And such people may be able to push steels a bit harder than the norm. Or they may simply prefer harder since it tends, at the margins, to resist edge roll better, and they may prefer to sacrifice a bit of toughness in an already tough-for-stainless steel. And of course, YOMV, YMMV.

~~~~~~~~~

I sharpen my "moderately hard use" bangers, 710 and 800 in M2, at 25 deg. No problems with chipping doing reasonable things (for a folder) in renovating a house, including scraping and mild prying, carpet cutting, drywall when the utility knife is elsewhere, etc.

But reiterating, and while admitting S30V is more expensive to procure, grind, finish... so it costs the user more... I think S30V has kind of unseated all of these steels, kinda removed their raison d'etre (especially 440V):

S60V / 440V
BG-42
D2 (except it's relatively cheap)
M2
ATS-34/154CM (except they also are less expensive to produce)
 
Originally posted by bobterzuola
I did a lot of research into S30v before committing to it but now all of my knives will be in this steel. It's toughness and stain resistance are extermely good especially when not hardened too much, I prefer Rc 58-59.

... I'll be introducing a knife in a limited series which will be produced for me in the US and marketed exclusivly by myself... S30V ... it is probably the best steel now available for a tough, using knife.
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Bob, I'm sure a bunch of us would be quite interested in hearing more about the testing you did and what ultimately went into your decision to target Rc58-59.

Anything else you care to say about the limited series knife? Pics maybe? :D
 
Originally posted by marsupial
... been usin a Simonich Raven for around a year now and like its performance better than any other super steels I have used. ... the steel wont roll as easily at the edge as some others will.I have had edge rollers roll way to easily,s30v wont do this it doesnt seem in my experience.
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From http://www.simonichknives.com/midtech.htm
Raven Combat Specifications:
Blade - 7" .200 thick S30-V
Overall - 12 5/8"
Hardness - Heat and Cryo treated by Paul Bos to RC 59-60
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Mr: Terzuola

I'd like to order a knife from you. I talked to you at the last Solvang knife show in April 2003. I have your catalog #3 but it is dated 2001. I like the TTF-3A Maybe I'll see you in Vegas in January 2004. I saw some of your knives at Blade Show West, they were nice, but alas no left hand ones for me.:D :) ;) :cool:
 
In answer only to, "Are other companies/makers using this steel?":

http://www.shoplite.com/kershaw52.htm

This is a Ken Onion designed Kershaw that I have on backorder. It will be my first knife of this steel, so I've nothing else to say at the moment. I'll let you know someday in the future.

WayLander
 
A major point of the CPM steels is that the carbides are smaller and very uniformly distributed. That makes it better than the same composition made in the conventional way. The other CPMs used in knives had way too much carbon for me but I thought the S30V would be ideal considering carbon and other alloying elements. I now have a sebenza and a terzuola so in time I will be able to judge ,so far they are fine. Of course I will never use them for cutting rebar,concrete or use them for prybars!! I would also like to hear Bob Terzuola's tests.
 
Originally posted by mete
A major point of the CPM steels is that the carbides are smaller and very uniformly distributed. That makes it better than the same composition made in the conventional way. The other CPMs used in knives had way too much carbon for me but I thought the S30V would be ideal considering carbon and other alloying elements.
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Conventional way being "ingot" steels?

...and I believe that small, uniformly distributed carbides leads to improved toughness relative to other similarly high alloy steels, and perhaps somewhat easier sharpening vs. other similarly high alloy steels (maybe).

The other point worth reiterating is that S30V in particular, includes per specification 0.2% nitrogen, but purportedly in practice Crucible is only getting around 0.1% nitrogen (I think Sal Glesser mentioned this).

Mete, I've seen little about what the nitrogen actually does in the steel's matrix... I've assumed "nitrides", but don't know. Any light you could shed would be appreciated.

Busse's INFI also contains nitrogen. Purported gains with nitrogen are improved toughness even at relatively high hardness, e.g. Rc59-60.
 
Rob, yes conventional means pouring into an ingot.That method ,because of the cooling characteristics leaves the center of the ingot non-homogenious. I have worked with large sections of tool steel ,12"x12"x12" and the problems are serious especially with the "massive carbides".Cpm solves that nicely, and it does give a tougher and easier to sharpen steel. I haven't seen the full specs , can't find them on Crucible website . Chromium and vanadium are strong nitride formers ,most of nitrogen goes there. I'm not sure of other effects. It would be nice if the Crucible man would respond.
 
DOG: Why not give me a call and we can chat about an order. I don't usually take left hand knives to a show but I'm happy to build one for you.

RDANGERER: My research into s30v consisted of cutting tests and chipping tests on the edge. Also breakage forces in a vise. One can also tell a lot about a steel by how difficult it is to grind.
I grind all of my blades in the hardened state and I can tell by how much hand pressure is required, how long different belts last and how long it takes to remove coarse and intermediate scratches, how the steel will perform as a cutting tool.
440v is probably the best edge holder in the absolute sense because of its high vanadium content but it is a bear to grind and kills belts very quickly. Scratches of all degrees are hard to remove. I would have to charge more just for the work if I were to use440v in my blades but there is a more important factor and that is edge chipping.
I found that the 440v has a greater tendency to chip( breakage, brittlenessat the same hardness) than the s30v. Vanadium tends to do that. S30v has half the percentage of vanadium as 440v so it is tougher and less prone to chipping. The 6% vanadium in s30v however gives it far superior edge holding properties than most other steels. As far as edge retention, I don't think the differece between the two would be noticable outside a laboratory.
As to the new knife, we're in the early stages of production. It will have s30v, step-milled carbon fiber handle, tactical design, about 4" blade. No pics yet but I hope to introduce them in NY in Nov. Thanks for asking. BOB
 
Originally posted by mete
...because of the cooling characteristics leaves the center of the ingot non-homogenious....problems are serious especially with the "massive carbides".

I haven't seen the full specs , can't find them on Crucible website .
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Interesting comment on massive carbides in big blocks.

Crucible was purportedly trying for a patent on aspects of S30V's composition and/or manufacture, so the Nitrogen secret was kept that way for a good while during development. Indeed, it still doesn't show up on the basic vanilla data sheet:
http://www.crucibleservice.com/datash/dsS30Vv4.pdf

Just in the interest of accuracy, S30V shows 4% vanadium.

Here are a couple of good threads:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=258256&highlight=s30v+nitrogen
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=243075&highlight=s30v+AND+rc61

I'm still unclear on the whole "package" of benefits from nitrogen. I understand that nitrogen binds with the other typical carbide formers, net result being there is more free chromium for corrosion resistance. Then it gets less clear... nitrogen either:
1. allows carbon to be backed down without giving up hardenability... then the question is what results from backing carbon down... improved toughness? or what?
2. or is the mechanism more direct... i.e. vanadium nitrides provide some matrix strengthening... and then question is what is result, "toughness" or "simple hardness begets strength"?
3. or are the vanadium nitrides and chromium nitrides better wear resistance components than vanadium and chromium carbides?

In that thread link above, Hossum speculates that Nitrogen may even be in the 3V mix.

Crucible makes some good stuff. 3v is just as impressive as S30V in it's own niche.
 
Rob, let me clarify a few things. First there has been a name change in some of the CPM steels , the CPM 440V is now called S60V. Second one of your references mentions H-1. This steel is not anything like S30V, in fact it is not heat treated by the knife maker and the nitrogen in it is there for precipitaion hardening. Chromium and vanadium are very strong nitride formers so they should take up nitrogen before they take up carbon. I don't know about wear resistance. Nitrogen is used mostly in the steel industry for nitriding or carbonitriding.Crucible will have to explain.....Bob T , thanks for the info, I'm not surprised that the CPM 440V (S60V) is more brittle,the 2 1/2 % carbon is more than I would ever want in a knife.
 
I have a BM 940 in S30V and it is an absolutely outstanding blade. not sure if BM is switching completely over to S30V but I noticed several of their folders are now in that grade.
 
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