s30v woes

Four men were sitting around a conference room table being interviewed for a job. The interviewer asked, "What is the fastest
thing you know of?" Pointing to the man on his right.

The first man replied, "A thought ... It pops into your
head, there's no forewarning that it's on the way ... It's just
there. A thought is the fastest thing I know of."

"That's very good!" Replied the interviewer. "And now you
.... Sir," He asked the second man.

"Hmmm . Let me see, a blink! It comes and goes and you
don't know it ever happened. A blink is the fastest thing I know
of."

"Excellent!" Said the interviewer. "The blink of an eye.
That's a very popular cliché for speed." He then turned to the
third man who was contemplating his reply.

"Well, out on my Dad's ranch, you step out of the house and
on the wall there is a light switch ... When you flip that switch,
way across the pasture the light at the barn comes on in an
instant. Turning on a light is the fastest thing I can think
of."

The interviewer was very impressed with the third answer
and thought he had found his man. "It's hard to beat the speed of
light." He said. Turning to the fourth man, a Newfoundlander, he
posed the same question.

"After hearing the three previous answers ... It's obvious
to me that the fastest thing known is diarrhea," Said the Newfie.

"What!" Said the interviewer ... Stunned by the response.

"Oh ... I can explain," Said the Newfie. "You see, the
other day I wasn't feeling so well and ran for the bathroom. But,
before I could think, blink, or turn on the light ... I shit my pants.


sorry, just some humor..................
now back to your regular programming:D
 
EDCeeker said:
STeven,

You may not care for Cliff's POV, manner, or whatever, but some of the rest of us are enjoying the discussion. If you have nothing more to contribute than personal attacks against Cliff, perhaps you would be so kind as to absent yourself from the discussion?

Thanks.
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Steven has every right to voice his opinion of what is being posted in this thread, just like you do. By the way, that's not a personal attack.
 
Jerry Hossom said:
Who is Landes?
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Yeah, Jerry, you know that Cliff is unpleasant, which is why, fer instance, he isn't seen around the Custom Knives and Guns Forum. He would get pounded!

Landes, is Roman Landes. He is German, and did an excellent thesis(I believe for his PhD) on cutlery steels. He is, again, I believe, an automotive engineer specializing in metallurgy. "Obscure reference" is, I believe a fair label.

Thom Brogan provided me with a link to his writings, which to be honest, I have not fully read, because metalurgy at that point is fairly dry, and I have a feeling that I would need Ed Schempp, Dan Maragni, Larrin Thomas or someone similar close by to answer questions.

Again, as you well know, directly engaging Cliff only results in frustration. Kevin Cashen has told me multiple times that Cliff has used his own findings against him when it suited his point.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
I think there's a sense projected on here that knifemakers are simple-minded tradesmen with dirty fingernails and steel dust in their pockets. That we are fundamentally ignorant and/or dishonest, incapable of understanding the science of metallurgy and knife construction, willing to foist garbage on an unsuspecting public.

The fact is there are many degreed knifemakers, some with advanced degrees, many more with advanced degrees who are comfortable in discussing the science of knifemaking with those who are the people who create these tools.

For example Ken Onion holds over 40 patents, only a portion of which are about knives. I happen to hold 8 patents in the areas of biomedical instrumentation, medical devices and fluid dynamics. In fact some of the smartest (not most educated) people I've ever known are knifemakers, and I've known a great many smart and well educated people outside of knifemaking to have some sense of what "smart" is.

Laboratory science doesn't always translate to the real world application of that science. The only way to determine what part of laboratory science is useful is to create something of it and test the result. In fact, no small part of laboratory science is engaged in learning the underlying principles of why something that already exisits works or doesn't.

To the best of my knowledge, Crucible Steel made no claims as to the utility of S30V when it was first introduced to the knife community. Knifemakers alone determined that its physical properties were applicable to knife edges. Crucible had certainly hoped that was so, but they had no real way of measuring its application or uses in cutlery. In fact I was told exactly that by Crucible's chief metallurgist. Yet, despite the unending rants as to its weaknesses it has become a widely accepted steel among those who make and use knives. By contrast, those companies which represent their steels as mystery steels wth nearly mystical qualities, never identifying the composition or the precise mechanical qualities that make it what they claim it to be, are those who should be suspect. Does anyone here believe that if there were better steels for use in knives, knifemakers wouldn't use them? What possible purpose could that possibly serve?

This industry like all others is based on competition. Failure to produce a competitive product will quickly result in failure, of both the product and the company. It is such in every industry; why would anyone think it is otherwise in this industry? Why would I be here, dealing with insults and arrogance, if I didn't know S30V was a good knife steel. It would certainly be much easier to switch than fight. Does anyone here think that one of the mystery steels can't be analyzed in metallurical laboratories and easily reproduced if there were sufficient cause to do so?

Does anyone here think that makers competing in the Professional Cutting Competition would use an inferior steel that would prevent them from winning? What would it gain Crucible to sponsor an inferior steel if it could be expected to lose? What kind of steel chops through a 2 x 4 in under 5 seconds, cuts a 1" hardwood dowel in a single stroke, and can still sever an empty plastic bottle? Is that inferior?

I sincerely hope there are some here who will apply the test of logic to determine which of these conflicting positions makes pragmatic sense. I hope so; I've exhausted my capacity to further deal with these arguments.
 
Keith Montgomery said:
Steven has every right to voice his opinion of what is being posted in this thread, just like you do. By the way, that's not a personal attack.
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Obviously I disagree with your latter assertion. His comments in this thread have consisted of almost nothing but personal attacks, IMO. However, he's apparently disinclined to stop it, even when asked politely, and the moderators are apparently inclined to allow it, so I'll say no more on the matter here.
 
Jerry Hossom said:
I think there's a sense projected on here that knifemakers are simple-minded tradesmen with dirty fingernails and steel dust in their pockets. That we are fundamentally ignorant and/or dishonest, incapable of understanding the science of metallurgy and knife construction, willing to foist garbage on an unsuspecting public.
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If, by "on here," you refer to bladeforums: I obviously cannot speak for anybody else, Jerry, but that's certainly not my perception.

I tend to respect accomplished craftspeople--envy them their abilities, even, regardless the craft.

Jerry Hossom said:
I...I've exhausted my capacity to further deal with these arguments.
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That's usually the way these things go ;)
 
Jerry Hossom said:
Who is Landes?

Are you seriously telling me that D2 is more difficult to grind than S30V? How would you know? How many blades have you ground in each steel? I've ground dozens of blades in D2 and hundreds in S30V.

Are you also suggesting that Crucible sponsors/bribes competitors to use their steels in the Professional Cutting Competition? That's nonsense, if not libelous. Schemp is using CPM-3V, which would not be my choice even though it is generally my favorite steel. What steel would you suggest using?

The Professional Cutting competition is completely different from the ABS Journeyman Smith test. The only thing they have in common is chopping a 2 x 4 which is just one small part of each exercise, and while a mild steel blade might bend to 90 degrees easily enough it makes a lousy 2 x 4 chopper and would most certainly fail the edge deformation elements of both activities. I seriously doubt Cashen would have suggested otherwise.

Cliif, you are an extremely unpleasant person and your defamatory comments are precisely why knifemakers generally avoid these forums. It just isn't worth the bother. Further, you insist on throwing around unsupported references and spout a lot of nonsense that has no bearing in reality. Unfortunately many of the people who read your posts don't know whether what you say is credible or not so it is often accepted at face value, which simply promulgates the misinformation. In fact if people actually read each of your sentences carefully, they would see that many of them don't make any sense at all or are dependent on hearsay or your personal opinion.

EDCeeker, I think you'll find that most knifemakers are happy to absent themselves from the "discussion", such as it is, as well.
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I think it is a real shame that there are knife makers, dealers and other pros in the industry that have been harassed to the point they will no longer participate in the forum. Yes we can disagree with them and discuss without harassing or insulting. I really hope most of those who don’t post anymore will come back and injoy the forums soon. I for one will try to be as disagreeable as I can without being harassing. :)
 
Sorry to wait so long to ask this. My machine died in the middle of this thread and I had to wait to get a new one before I could ask my question. (I can't access bladeforums from work. They got filters that won't let me visit weapons web sites. Sigh.)

Jerry, you were saying that edge finish is vital to S30V performance. In some of the S30V threads I have read of chipping blades where the chipping went away after sharpening and others where the chipping did not go away.

In your experince, if I have a knife with a poor finish and I resharpen it and polish it, would you expect the chipping issue to go away? All other things being equal?

Edge sharpening skills vary greatly and could explain why sometimes the chipping disappears and sometimes it does not.

Thanks for your insight into this issue.

For that matter thanks to all. I have been loving this thread, even with the occasional left turns. I just wish my machine hadn't gone DOA. Note to self: clean dust bunnies out of computer box more often.
 
I may get flamed for saying this, but here goes. I have not made any blades out of S30V myself. I have sharpened several blades out of this steel, including two of my own, some of them several times. Two blades come in mind that two guys were complaining about micro chipping. One of them was somewhere around 15 deg. each side and the other was about 17 deg. each side. I sharpened each of these knives twice at roughly 17 deg. and both of them still had problems with micro chips. Both of these guys were putting these blades through some pretty rough service. I finally sharpened both blades to 20 deg. and that ended the chipping. I have sharpened the blades one time each since then with the same results.
 
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