S30v

J85909266 said:
That's not true. I've had three S30V knives with brittle edges that chipped readily and often for no reason I could think of, and they never went near any belt sanders.
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What brand (s) of knives were they?
 
Thomas W said:
Cliff, I'm not sure how you define "many people" ...
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Specifically many times to one the complaints made on similar steels. I can call up threads if you want, I referenced a number of them for the materials page I wrote a while ago. These were people having problems, getting a return and having the same problems. People buying multiple S30V blades from multiple manufacturers and having problems. People having issues with very light work, just cutting soft materials.

As far as folks having knives rehardened, this will never happen from a production company standpoint.
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Those individuls are getting custom makers to do mods, there are makes who will reharden, regrind, mod handles, clips, finishes, etc. .

ZDP just can't be had in volume.
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I don't see it replacing S30V for mass production either, I was speaking more of the high demand sprint runs or custom pieces.

-Cliff
 
Specifically many times to one the complaints made on similar steels. I can call up threads if you want, I referenced a number of them for the materials page I wrote a while ago. These were people having problems, getting a return and having the same problems. People buying multiple S30V blades from multiple manufacturers and having problems. People having issues with very light work, just cutting soft materials.
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As I mentioned earlier, I am not disputing there has been complaints and issues concerning chipped edges.
There has also been 10's of 1000's of S30V blades on the market. Certainly we must all agee that the percentage of satisfied S30V users far outweigh the unsatisfied ones. I would think there would be market wide outrage if this wasn't true. I have yet to hear or read of a manufacturer halting the use of S30V because of continuous edge chipping.
IMO, the percentage of S30V edge chipping issues are a minority compared to the amount of knives that have hit the pockets of satisfied users.
 
The rate of defects reported will always be low because of a number of factors. How many of the knives which are bought are carried, how many which are carried are used, how many which are used are so by discriminating users, how many defects seen are by those willing and able to discuss it on the internet, etc. . However contrast the number of problems reported on S30V vs other similar steels and not the significant difference in spite of the fact that S30V is supposed to be tougher not more brittle than those steels.

As for its continued use and/or popularity. This can not be used to argue performance. How many makers/manufacturers who switch to S30V did so after extensive comparative testing and how many simply because it is the current hot steel. Benchmade is switching from M2 to D2, does this imply that it is an upgrade performance wise for the discriminating user or should we be willing to admit it may simply be a profit issue.

-Cliff
 
3Guardsmen said:
From what I've read and heard, the Rat Trap's are made by BladeTech (think "Wegner Professional Hunter"), and not by Swamp Rat, so the heat treat would be done by whoever does Wegner's knives. I'll tell you this, my BladeTech Professional Hunter (in S30V) performs great, and I've had no chipping problems with it whatsoever.

Regards,
3G
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I don't think this is correct. You could ask Eric, but I believe the only thing made by bladetech are a few small parts. The Knives are made by Swamp Rat.
 
Does anyone know at what Rockwell hardness their S30V knife is hardened to?

I think some manufactures are hardening S30V over 59RCH (normal range is 57-59RCH) causing their knives to chip.

sog
 
However contrast the number of problems reported on S30V vs other similar steels and not the significant difference in spite of the fact that S30V is supposed to be tougher not more brittle than those steels.
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I'll only speak for Kershaw on this one Cliff, but S30V has not been any more problematic than any other high end steel we use. We would hear it from our customers if there was chipping issues, (with the premium price you pay for all performance steel), and the user should/would complain if there are problems. We just haven't seen evidence of it.

Cliff, in the grand scheme of volume used knife steel, let's face it, S30V is a big minority of which gets play on the forums due to its educated end line users and enthusiasts, of whom are searching for the best steel they can get. For most volume manufacturers the S30V steel projects do not usually pay the bills.

How many makers/manufacturers who switch to S30V did so after extensive comparative testing and how many simply because it is the current hot steel.
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I'm not sure why this is relevant in this thread, but I know there are some manufacturers that do more testing than others, and while I think this is important to note, we all need to realize each manufacturer is unique in how they run their business. Manufacturers are into producing knives the way they do for a variety of reasons. Some of which we understand and agree with, others not so much. There will always be leaders and followers as well.
I guess what I am saying is that unless we have inside information concerning these type of specifics, (in this case your S30V, and BM M2/D2 questions) we shouldn't look to draw conclusions on why or how manufactures make the decisions they make.


Please forgive me if I'm off base with this, but I have to ask you Cliff, does your conclusions and commentary on S30V go beyond your testing?

edit for spelling
 
FWIW... the Blade article I believe also had one of the CPM reps discuss this, as well as the comments of several makers, one who admitted that he would only use new belts to sharpen S30V due to used belts being glazed, thereby imparting more heat to the edge with the resultant change to Austentite(?) at the edge... They also discussed this as the result of over dulling being the reason to resort to belts and needing to, in essence, reprofile the edge geometry. Thus being on the belt longer and building up temp to be more likely... I believe also Paul Bos and another maker discussed heat treating the stuff requires much more precision than most carbon steels...

Personally, I don't know as I don't carry one in S30V, so I haven't had to deal with the sharpening issues, nor chip-in-use issues...
 
Thomas, have you read through some of the threads here about this besides this one? There are so many that stand out saying " I just reprofiled the edge", and I removed enough steel untill it stopped".

They're not reporting it to your and other companies warranty and repair departments. I know I didn't.

I have well over 200 knives with pretty near all steels in common production. S30V is the only one to chip out on me opening a plastic bag of dog treats. Joe L.
 
Thomas W said:
We just haven't seen evidence of it.
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I don't recall it being a focus of the reports either, which were mainly, Buck, Spyderco, Benchmade and Reeve.

I'm not sure why this is relevant in this thread ...
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You proposed the idea that since it is used it demonstrates the quality, I was noting why this is not the case and in fact many are using it simply because it is the current hot steel.

I guess what I am saying is that unless we have inside information concerning these type of specifics, (in this case your S30V, and BM M2/D2 questions) we shouldn't look to draw conclusions on why or how manufactures make the decisions they make.
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Yes exactly, and one of those conclusions which should not be so trivially drawn is that it represents superior performance for the ELU.

... does your conclusions and commentary on S30V goes beyond your testing?
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Yes, it includes the materials data from Crucible, discussions with makers who use it, commentary from discriminating users like sodak, etc. . In the knives I have personally used I have not seen a signifiant issue of durability aside from Reeve's, however this doesn't mean I ignore other data besides what I have personally gathered, that isn't a very sensible approach obviously.

-Cliff
 
The Mastiff, I have read the multiple threads on S30V, and I also mentioned twice in this thread that I didn't dispute the claims.
When we are talking about a performance oriented, high dollar piece, I'm not sure why one wouldn't report the performance issue to the maufacturer. It seems a little odd to me that someone wouldn't let a company know that their V8 performs like a bicycle. :confused:

Yes exactly, and one of those conclusions which should not be so trivially drawn is that it represents superior performance for the ELU.
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Fair enough.

in fact many are using it simply because it is the current hot steel.
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Do you feel this is inappropriate Cliff?
 
When we are talking about a performance oriented, high dollar piece, I'm not sure why one wouldn't report the performance issue to the maufacturer. It seems a little odd to me that someone wouldn't let a company know that their V8 performs like a bicycle
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Thomas, that's a good question that I've pondered myself. Perhaps it's our personalities. Maybe it's the time and trouble and down time at W&R. I can only speak for myself. Too much trouble, and too much down time. It was easier to give it to my cousins husband and pull out a different knife. Sorry, that's the best answer I have. BTW, a $60 knife isn't real high dollar any more for a lot of people that frequent this forum. For those that is they are told by others that if they remove the surface steel they will find good steel.
They get out the sharpener. Some of them aren't sure it's not something that they did to chip the blade too.

I don't think you are dealing with the average consumer of electronics where the TV or PC doesn't work if it's defective. The knife still cuts and we're used to sharpening them anyway. Certainly these guesses aren't much help to you though. Regards. Joe L.

Edit: an example of a typical chip thread . Notice the advice the new guys get. Perhaps that contributes to underreporting.http://spyderco.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23131
 
Yes I very much think that there is a strong fad driving force in the cutlery industry
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Who or where do you think this is spawning from? Manufacturers? Makers?

especially from the individuals selling the "superior" products
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What product are you speaking of? S30V?
 
I love particle metallurgy......just as much as I love particle board but to each his own. :D
 
Thanks, guys for all of the replies. I did not realize I was asking about such a controversial subject!

Cliff is probaby correct in stating that a lot of people who buy S30V knives don't actually use them. I have a Ritter Griptilian in S30V and have never cut anything with it. I have used my Spyderco Military only once or twice. This is the case for most of the knives I own. I collect knives and mainly use only 4-5 knives from my collection for chores around the house and yard.

Also, most people who would know enough about knives to seek out high end steels are likely to be collectors, and like myself probably don't use many of the knives they buy. On the other hand, the average person will just go to Walmart and buy whatever catches their eye in the display case, having no idea of what is a good steel or design.
 
Thomas W said:
Who or where do you think this is spawning from? Manufacturers? Makers?
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People in general, fads are common for all aspects of life for a variety of reasons, the cutlery industry isn't unique in this respect.

What product are you speaking of? S30V?
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I wasn't speaking of a product in general just the idea you proposed that because a product is well used it must be a demonstration of quality in defence of S30V, to say that the problem obviously isn't so severe because people still use it. Products can be extensively used simply because it is in fashion to do so. This isn't to say that everyone follows fads, or even that fads demonstrate a lack of quality. They simply don't indicate anything definate about quality at all.

As an example consider 440C vs 440A, how many makers will degrade 440A as a steel not worth being used in high grade knives and repeat this to users. But is it actually based on facts? How many have actually taken the time to look at the two steels and see where the performance maximizes? Now read the research done by Landes on steels and find the glaring contradiction when issue is actually examined and the performance definately measured and 440A is found to be superior in several ways *as a cutting steel* to 440C, while also being tougher and more corrosion resistant and easier to grind.

This willingness to just accept ideas is a big problem because it destroys information flow. Now the good thing for the discriminating ELU is that this gives them a way to trivially tell which maker actually has the high performance tools. If someone is selling superior products then he *wants* an informed consumer. Those manufacturers will give piles of facts with published and independent references. They will make every effort to have the consumers as educated as possible and encourage use of their product and specifically comparisons against others because all of this will show the user that their products are in fact superior.

Makers with high performance knives encourage the difficult questions. They want to be asked about performance, and I don't mean in vague ways, they want specific questions, they welcome comparions of their blades, they want to see them reviewed and they want very critical and demanding perspectives. However if you are just selling hype then you don't want a skeptic and you really don't want an informed skeptic.

-Cliff
 
what is ELU?

and i'm pretty happy with my s30v Native... i put a tiny nick in the edge today that was barely noticeable... but it was from cutting the ends off the battery cables on my truck :eek:

still shaved though... the nick is almost gone after some retouching on the Sharpmaker
 
My Benchmade Mini-Grip (558) chipped several times in the first few months of use. After a few sharpenings (including a reprofiling) it stopped chipping. I suspect that the factory edge was overheated during the final grinding. Perhaps S30V is unusually susceptible to this? Doesn't seem to me that we've seen such numerous complaints about ATS-34 or VG10.
 
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