S30v

If S30V is so, well, not ideally suited to knives.....

Why are Spyderco, Swamp Rat and so many other RESPECTED manufacturers offering it? I mean, reputations are on the line here.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
440V (S60V now?) was the rage for a while, we see where that went. Respected manufacturers will manufacture what the customer wants, til they don't want it any more.
 
Great post by Cliff!

Great point by Hardheart, too!

This sort of dialog is very informative, especially with Cliff (a guy whose opinions I really respect) chiming in. I happen to think the answer to the "S30V chipping" issue is really found somewhere in the middle.

I believe S30V is a great steel. I aslo feel S30V is more prone to chipping than other stainless steels. I think the problem is tied up in the particular heat treatment of the steel. My very uneducated feeling is that this steel (S30V) requires a somewhat more exacting heat treat than some manufacturers were originally let to believe. I really happen to think that with a very selective heat treat, S30V can live up to the "hype".

My $.02,
3G
 
Thomas W said:
Who or where do you think this is spawning from? Manufacturers? Makers?
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Consumers. Manufacturers follow trends that sell. One company makes a tanto blade. Soon they all do. One makes an assisted opener. Soon they all do. Take care.
 
I would rather have ATS34, 154CM, BG42, 440C, VG10 and D2 than S30V. When those steels are done right, they don't chip easily.
 
Knife Outlet said:
Consumers. Manufacturers follow trends that sell.
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Manufacturers will also try to create such trends as will dealers and others who sell the blades. The basic idea is to get the consumers to accept the viewpoint if it is used then it is obviously a good thing, and if it is used a lot, then it is obviously a really good thing. Why be skeptical, relax guy, and just accept the fact that it is in your best interest. Note that the use of a steel being used to argue for the use of a steel is perfect circular logic.

This of course has no validity. As a glaring exampe, many well respected makers have long argued forging produces better blades. This improvement is often claimed to be multiple to one and even increases over time. There isn't just one smith making this claim there are lots. So obviously it isn't possible to dispute it - it would be just crazy to even imply otherwise. However as Cashen has pointed out, the actual facts of the metallurgy don't support the claims.

Now Cashen is a respected maker as well so that whole follow the leader viewpoint is gone. You now have two respected makers severely contradicting each other and only one of them can be right. You have to stop being lead, go look at the data, do some research, become educated and independenly form a decision. Or just pick which ever side has the most/coolest people. However if you do that, then you can't really argue that your support indicates a valid arguement obviously.

The same of course goes with many popular knife myths, decreasing edge angles produces lower edge retention, wear resistance = superior, low carbide = inferior, a high polish has better edge retention than coarse edges, coarse edges can't shave, convex edges are inherently superior. Mike Swaim and Alvin Johnston showed how most of the above was false on rec.knives inspite of the large and vocal arguement commonly made. As noted earlier, the work of Landes and Verhoeven contradicts the viewpoint of many makers - however whose side has the data?

3Guardsmen said:
My very uneducated feeling is that this steel (S30V) requires a somewhat more exacting heat treat than some manufacturers were originally let to believe.
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It was actually specifically designed, according to Crucible, as a knife steel able to be heat treated by knifemakers. Ease of heat treatment was one of the primary goals and heavily promoted so it is hard to argue this is the reason for the chipping. It is hard to explain why it would be significantly more brittle especially considering the promotion. The main problem is trying to find one reason when in fact it looks to be many.

I have seen S30V blades come apart on stones when sharpening, this is different than a knife which sharpens well but loses huge and visible chips popping down some light branches and different still than a knife which takes visible damage cutting cardboard or plastic. I have seen some blades just fall apart cutting plywood even light cutting and other blades tear into it like styrofoam with no ill effects - so you can't argue the steel isn't inherently capable, it has to be the implementation.

I think the fad effect is actually having an amplification effect on the reports of chipping because that actually became sort of a fad in itself. Plus a large part was the massive over promotion on toughness which really tends to make you want to note the disparity. For example if you bought a pair of sneakers and (a) the main selling point was they were comfortable or (b) the main selling point was they were durable. Would your responce to some damage be the same in both cases - likely not. You are much more likely to be very vocal in complaining in the second case.

-Cliff
 
Do you think that Spyderco and Swamp Rat are decieving the customer? If not.....

Are the manufacturers themselves being hoodwinked into using an inferior product by the steel producer?

Please, you have inferred and postulated in the past, do me the courtesy of a direct response.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Why would they want to deceive thew customer? Is S30V secretly 1/2 the price of 420J2, and they are bringing in huge profits? Do they just think it's hilarious to have their products display defects, and then lie to the customer about it? They didn't make the steel, they don't have to use it.

Have you asked Sal Glesser if his company is deceiving the customer, or posed the question to Eric on the SR forum? I don't see where asking Cliff is going to get you. If you want to know the motivatioins for them to use S30V, I would think asking them would be the most productive course.

If you just want to argue with Cliff, then go ahead.
 
hardheart said:
Why would they want to deceive thew customer?

If you just want to argue with Cliff, then go ahead.
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Thank you Cliff, did you change your handle to Hard Heart?:p

I am not arguing, I am asking a frikkin' question, do you have anything of value to add?
No, I didn't think so.

When I want to ask Sal a question, I call him and ask him, and if APPROPRIATE, I post the results of our conversation.

This question is directed to what Cliff thinks is driving the factory trend to use an expensive "sub-optimal" steel that has been in steady use for the last 5 years.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Well I'll just say that as an organization, Kershaw Knives Kai USA has been very satisfied with S30V. We have had really no issues to speak of, and find that the performance agrees with the hype.

From what I can decipher, heat treat and sharpening with a specific manufacturer's batch, seem to me to be most of the primary issues in S30V not meeting expectations.
I trust adjustments have been made, but can't obviously speak for any of the companies that are continuing to consume S30V. Some businesses refine their production, performance, and practices, others do not.

The picture I personally don't buy into, is that Crucible with the assistance of Chris Reeve (who I respect greatly, and have spoken with personally on this particular subject), developed and then hyped up a hot new steel. They pitched it to the manufacturers who in turn bought into the impressive data and specs (well some did, others followed later). We in turn blindly promoted it hard to the dealers and consumers. The ELU then bought into the hype, only to find out that S30V was nothing more than the flavor of the month steel that doesn't remotely live up to the propaganda.

If I am incorrectly reading between your lines with the above scenario Cliff, I apologize.
 
*sigh* on second thought, I'll just say that Cliff cannot say with any authority where the hype originally comes from; if the knife makers/manufacturers are they themselves unable to see through any smoke & mirrors CPM may be putting up, or if they do see some sort of fundamental flaw in S30V yet continue to sell it through deception. Cliff is an end user like the rest of us, and asking him his opinion is fine, but to ask if the Glessers or Busses are trying to deceive anyone is bad form, imo.
 
WadeF said:
Can you elaborate on this? I often figured when people have problems with chipping, etc, it's mainly due to the manufacturer putting the edge on with a belt sander or some kind of poewr tool that ruins the temper right at the edge. I know it's often been brought up and many people suggest resharpening the blade to remove the bad steel at the edge.

Is s30v more prone to having the temper ruined? If it's hard to grind/sand, would it spend more time on a sander/grinder resulting in the metal at the edge getting even hotter than other blades with steel that grinds easier?

I haven't noticed any serious chipping issues with my Benchmade Doug Ritter Grip in s30v, but I have reprofiled the edge and may have removed any potentially bad steel at the edge.
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You are discussing two different features of the edge. One; the edges are chipping, from being too hard with not enough stress relief [tempering] or two; the edge being overheated after it has been tempered, causing the edge to distort and not return to true after being flexed. Apples and oranges. Fred
 
Maybe instead of crying hype, the public should thank Crucible for paying attention to the knife industry and making attempts to get the public better materials. Their efforts have introduced new materials and have brought other steel people into the market place. They also attend the major shows putting on seminars and fielding any and all questions during the events. You will notice they don't post here much. I don't blame them. It's the old kick a dog until it doesn't come back scenario. I for one am looking forward to the next steel of the month.
 
Interesting stuff here. For the record, I have 2 S-30V blades, one of which I have abused pretty badly. I have encountered no chipping issues that were not a direct result of absolute stupidity. Even then, chipping was very minimal in comparison to some ATS-34, D-2 and 154CM blades in my collection. Both S-30V blades are made by Spyderco.

With that said, S-30v would not be my choice for a large knife. It's great for small to medium sized knives, that won't be called upon to chop through extemely rigid and hard substrates.
 
hardheart said:
Cliff is an end user like the rest of us, and asking him his opinion is fine, but to ask if the Glessers or Busses are trying to deceive anyone is bad form, imo.
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No, he is not an ELU like the rest of us.

He is a mobile knife testing laboratory who has put in countless hours stripping the hype down to reality, thusly, his perceptions of the way things are carry more weight than the rest of us, who can barely spell 10 degrees included, let alone sharpen a knife to that angle.:D

It is not bad form to ask a question, it is bad form to accuse a maker or manufacturer of wrongdoing without specific substantiation.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Satrang said:
Maybe instead of crying hype, the public should thank Crucible for paying attention to the knife industry and making attempts to get the public better materials. Their efforts have introduced new materials and have brought other steel people into the market place. They also attend the major shows putting on seminars and fielding any and all questions during the events. You will notice they don't post here much. I don't blame them. It's the old kick a dog until it doesn't come back scenario. I for one am looking forward to the next steel of the month.
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AMEN!!!! My thoughts exactlly.
 
S30V is hit or miss, with the hit being an excellent cutting steel, with decent sharpening manners. If you miss, the bottom line seems to be with some steel removed from the surface, you're back to the steel it is designed to be. A steel that performs like a premium steel with decent manners for the knifemaker

Some like it, some don't. It's not designed to be the end all of steels, and it isn't. Some hawk it that way, most don't. It does seem to make a lot of ELU's happy though. To me the simple act of the blade chipping out tarnished it in my mind. I 'm not in the majority opinion IMO.

I too wait for better and even better steels, but that's a personal problem. BY the way, I've never had trouble with a serrated spyderco S30 knife for whatever reason. Just a plain edge one, very thin and sharp..

I'll always like carbon steels better anyway, especially D2, M2, and 1095 for differing reasons. ZDP 189 is really getting my attention though, as is SGPS. They are very good steels, as is the Super Blue ( carbon). The future looks bright.

I do think Crucibell should be lauded not condemned for spending money, time and effort to make a pure knife steel for higher end production stainless knives. Not exactly the highest profit potential in it for them.JMO. Joe L.
 
hardheart said:
.... to ask if the Glessers or Busses are trying to deceive anyone is bad form, imo.
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I think it is a valid question but asked in an obviously inflammatory way. For example many people who have heavily used liner lock knives have formed the opinion that they are unsuitable for tactical/heavy utility knives. These are people who are generally well regarded and have a wide experience base and have no connections to the industry, guys like Swaim, Talmadge, and Harvey.

Now consider what they have done, and the reports on liner locks in general, which were so problematic that along with A. T. Barr, Joe even wrote a FAQ to help users spot problems. Now does all of this mean that makers are decieving customers by using and promoting liner locks on tactical folders? Or does the fact that they are so popular invalidate the problems reported by Talmadge and company?

Asking if there is a better steel than S30V for various uses and asking if a maker is decieving a customer by promoting S30V as "best" are essentially the same question but the intent is very different and obviously transparent. Are there many more problems reported with S30V - yes. Have I seen problems, yes, some severe, some minor and some blades which were generally solid for a high carbide steel.

As for my viewpoint on the steel, I have been very vocal that several of my favorite knives are in S30V. The Spyderco Paramiliary/Manix and Phil Wilson South Fork. The reviews of these knives speaks very strongly for the steel from my perspective. The Swamp Rat Rat Trap may be competition for the Paramiliary I just have not carried it as much. What I have done in this thread and others is pointed out the extent of problems with S30V is far more than other similar steels and that the attempts to explain it actually contradict the origional promotion.

Do I feel there are better steels, yes for various applications. Do I feel that certain makers are intentionally decieving customers - well this is as you noted is impossible to know unless you are personally connected to the maker/manufacturer. You would need to know the exact information they are aware of and how they chose to interpret it. This is kind of an absurd question to ask a user, ask the makers/amnufacturers for the exact reasons they are using it. What tests did they do to verify it was superior to the alternatives. What work can the users to to verify this proposal.

Roman Landes noted sometime ago that if you want a high sharpness and very high push cutting edge retention then you need to look at low primary carbide volume steels and gave the exact heat treatment necessary to create this in 440A for example. Now are all the makers who still promote 440C over 440A uniformly decieving people? That is just inflammatory trolling. There is a big inertia right now for those types of steels and until more makers get vocal people will just roll with popular opinion.

If you have been on the internet for any length of time you should be very aware that manufacturers have made public statements such as Benchmades comment they didn't switch steels because of the cost of educating the customer it was superior so they just used a known steel, this was stated publically in their forum. See the relevance to this discussion, of course. The idea of questioning that people will use a known material because it is marketable is frankly astounding.

Obviously this is the case, to which extent depends on the individual maker/manufacturer. Some of them will actually create a market and pretty much ignore popular opinion. Wilson uses a lot of hot steels for example but checks them extensively and will be very open about the exact extent of the advantages and disadvanatages of the materials. While he does use S30V he also uses 420HC for example and will recommend 420HC over S30V for some knives. Spyderco also uses S30V but has never went over the top in promoting extreme toughness nor ignored the fact that people were having problems. Busse uses it but was always clear it is a light use steel.

-Cliff
 
Cliff are you referring to the Roman Landes who is German and has an Automotive Engineering degree? Where can I read his work?

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Maybe instead of crying hype, the public should thank Crucible for paying attention to the knife industry and making attempts to get the public better materials. Their efforts have introduced new materials and have brought other steel people into the market place. They also attend the major shows putting on seminars and fielding any and all questions during the events.
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As a major manufacturer, I would also whole heartedly agree that Crucible should be recognized for their efforts, and applauded for their introduction of materials that the knife community has indeed benefited from. Also, future materials will no doubt be attractive.:thumbup:
 
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