S30v

Finally found myself agreeing with Satrang. It's very nice that Crucible has taken interest in a relatively small market. Their Labelle #2 and Champaloy should be highly coveted. (Start coveting, darnit!)

Thomas W,

I'm one of the people who begged a custom knifemaker (who performs his own heat-treatment of air-quenched steels) to reharden some production knives I bought which had S30V steel blades. I'm one of the people who believed makers and manufacturers who said S30V is a tough steel and found out that some people define toughness in ways which escape dictionaries... I'm also a big fan of S30V when used for light cutting (which is 99+% of most of our uses) because its combination of wear-resistance, hardness, and corrosion resistance work well for low-maintenance, light-use cutlery. Since it's my sacred duty to thin out edges until they chip, S30V knives which have chipped durring my uses are my fault. Better to have to sharpen out chips now and then than to have a pristine edge which needs to be muscled through everything.
 
Cliff Stamp said:
Roman Landes noted sometime ago that if you want a high sharpness and very high push cutting edge retention then you need to look at low primary carbide volume steels and gave the exact heat treatment necessary to create this in 440A for example. Now are all the makers who still promote 440C over 440A uniformly decieving people? That is just inflammatory trolling. There is a big inertia right now for those types of steels and until more makers get vocal people will just roll with popular opinion.

.......See the relevance to this discussion, of course. The idea of questioning that people will use a known material because it is marketable is frankly astounding.

.... Wilson uses a lot of hot steels for example but checks them extensively and will be very open about the exact extent of the advantages and disadvanatages of the materials. While he does use S30V he also uses 420HC for example and will recommend 420HC over S30V for some knives. Spyderco also uses S30V but has never went over the top in promoting extreme toughness nor ignored the fact that people were having problems. Busse uses it but was always clear it is a light use steel.

-Cliff
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1. I just got off the phone with Kevin Cashen. Quoting Landes is not fair, because what he published is in GERMAN, which most of us don't happen to read, and therefore, automatically makes any quotes irrefutable, in addition, while the work, according to Kevin, is extremely in depth, and knowledgeable, is not commonly available, making reference difficult, to say the least.

2. How did Spyderco accomodate those having problems with S30V, and how do you define light cutting and/or use?

3. Thomas Brogan, when you refer to Champalloy, are you talking about L6?

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
the secret is in heat treatment. i have been working on s30v lately for other knife applications. i have even tried the parameters suggested by crucible but still not acceptable (hard but brittle). i almost gave up, until one day i hit it.
i got a good combination of hardness and toughness at 61-63HRC and i'm very much willing to put it into test whoever wanted to. secondary hardness was also triggered which give my s30v knife the optimum performance.
 
Most makers tell me that S30V gets brittle if too hard. It seems hardening to around RC58-59 is the way to get the best compromise from it. I have all kinds of S30V blades. I even have an S30V chef knife in the kitchen. They are as good anything on the market for all around cutlery use. There are harder steels and tougher steels and more corrosion resistant steels but S30V at 58-59 is pretty hard to beat overall.
 
Kohai999 said:
1. I just got off the phone with Kevin Cashen. Quoting Landes is not fair, because what he published is in GERMAN
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This discussion happened here in english, so he can refer thereto.
 
Blop said:
This discussion happened here in english, so he can refer thereto.
Click to expand...

I have just been made aware of the location of the information, thanks to TBrogan, Cliff usually produces a hyperlink if the information is readily available, so you can blop me!:D

STeven Garsson
 
Kohai999 said:
1. I just got off the phone with Kevin Cashen. Quoting Landes is not fair, because what he published is in GERMAN, which most of us don't happen to read, and therefore, automatically makes any quotes irrefutable, in addition, while the work, according to Kevin, is extremely in depth, and knowledgeable, is not commonly available, making reference difficult, to say the least.
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Quoting Roman Landes is not fair because he publishes *in German*? And his work not commonly available? Wow, that's a profound statement.

In fact, the second edition of his book just came out and is freely available. And not knowing German is hardly a good excuse not to take his findings into account.

Hans
 
Habeas Corpus said:
Quoting Roman Landes is not fair because he publishes *in German*? And his work not commonly available? Wow, that's a profound statement.

In fact, the second edition of his book just came out and is freely available. And not knowing German is hardly a good excuse not to take his findings into account.

Hans
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Hans, I don't want to turn this into a debate about language, but if Cliff had a definitive tome on metallurgy in Aramaic, and was the only one with English crib notes, would you get your panties in a wad then?

The unifying language on this forum is English, in case you were confused or something.:rolleyes:

Und nicht traten die Vereinigten Staaten den Misten aus den Deutschen heraus nicht so vor langer Zeit? Lassen Sie sich nicht zu grosser, kleiner Mann, es aussehen läßt Sie nur der Dummkopf scheinen!


Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
"Und nicht traten die Vereinigten Staaten den Misten aus den Deutschen heraus nicht so vor langer Zeit? Lassen Sie sich nicht zu grosser, kleiner Mann, es aussehen läßt Sie nur der Dummkopf scheinen!"

This was foolish.
Your lack of German is no better then your knowledge about History.
But im sure...you have seen it all :/
 
dackler said:
This was foolish.
Your lack of German is no better then your knowledge about History.
But im sure...you have seen it all :/
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My knowlege of German sucks, but one of my brothers is married to a German woman, so if I needed some "real deal" she could put up!
No, it is my knowledge of Babelfish that is very good.;)

Lemme be real clear, here, dackler, hans and the rest of the German contingent getting all fluffed up. I really don't give a crap what you think.:grumpy:

I was making a joke, it was supposed to be somewhat stupid, and it was.:D

This is not a STeven vs Germany thread, although I assure you,it is not a good idea to make it one, I lost 1/2 my family in the Camps, it is a sore wound, and all the history I need to know.:(

My original point is that Cliff is quoting fairly obscure work, I doubt it is on the bestseller list in Germany, and is virtually unobtainable here in the Good Ol US of A. That is all.

STeven Garsson
 
Gentlemen, I have some observations to add on CPMS30V and a couple of the other steels mentioned here. I was one of the first to try out S30V and wrote a couple of articles on it for Blade. From the very first knife blade I made with it until now I am still very happy with its performance. I have never experienced the chipping problem that has been reported here and can only get fine chipping with what I would call abuse on a very thin and hard blade. This would be whittling on redwood or pine and “twisting the blade out of the cut. The blade I did this with was .006 behind the edge bevel and RC 61.
This steel does require attention during heat treatment. Close temperature control is important, and it is sensitive to quench rate. Subzero treatment is also very beneficial. It “is” easy to heat treat compared to 154CM, S90V , S60V and 10V . 154CM just does not have a good snappy response and requires a very fast air quench or oil quench. 90V, and 10V need a soak temperature of at least 2100 to get a finished hardness of 60/61. S-30V can be run at 1970 which in the range of most knife maker furnaces. So easy to heat treat is relative and has to be qualified by comparing it to other high Vanadium CPM blade steels. Paul Bos does S-30V routinely and gets very good results according to feed back from his custom maker customers. I also would like to acknowledge the technical support I got from Crucible in learning to heat treat 60V, 90V and 10V. I have always been able to call up and talk to a metallurgists and get great first hand advice. Sometimes you can talk to other companies but for example I have never been able to get help from Hitachi. Crucible has also made sheet shock or bar stock available in small quantizes and thickness that are just right for custom knife makers.
I mentioned earlier here that I made a blade from a ZDP 189/ATS34 laminate. I got this steel from a distributor in Japan that sells Hitachi products. It was very expensive. One bar 12 inches long by .0125 and 1.25 wide was about $50 not including shipping. They did furnish heat treat information and I followed their recipe and got a finished hardness of RC66 on the ZDP core. This blade was .008 behind the edge bevel and when pushed hard on pine as the 30V blade above I got the same kind of small edge chipping. Edge holding cutting rope is comparable to S90V (same blade thickness at RC 61 hardness) in my tests so far. Given the cost, availability and performance I think I will stick with S90V for those applications like hunting blades that require excellent edge holding.

I recently completed a 9 inch fillet knife with CPM 154. This is a great steel to work with. Easy to grind, finish and heat treat. Using the same formula I use for 154CM I got an honest RC 62 on this fillet blade. It is ground thin and will flex 90 degrees with a 5 lb force and spring back without permanent displacement. It is plenty tough to cut rope and cardboard but at this hardness is not a chopping blade. In my initial rope cutting tests this blade cut equal with a similar S30V blade up to 70 cuts. The test is with ½ inch manila rope cutting against an Alder wood block with 6 inches of the blade length. Paul Bos has been heat treating it and says he loves it. More time and experience will be needed to fully evaluate the toughness but it should be somewhat better than conventional 154. This IMHO is a great steel for a wide range of knives. It will replace conventional 154 for my fillet knives and kitchen knives. PHIL
 
You are a genuine source of knowledge and experience, and what you say brings a lot of weight to a discussion like this.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Phil Wilson said:
I recently completed a 9 inch fillet knife with CPM 154. This is a great steel to work with. Easy to grind, finish and heat treat. Using the same formula I use for 154CM I got an honest RC 62 on this fillet blade. It is ground thin and will flex 90 degrees with a 5 lb force and spring back without permanent displacement. It is plenty tough to cut rope and cardboard but at this hardness is not a chopping blade. In my initial rope cutting tests this blade cut equal with a similar S30V blade up to 70 cuts. The test is with ½ inch manila rope cutting against an Alder wood block with 6 inches of the blade length. Paul Bos has been heat treating it and says he loves it. More time and experience will be needed to fully evaluate the toughness but it should be somewhat better than conventional 154. This IMHO is a great steel for a wide range of knives. It will replace conventional 154 for my fillet knives and kitchen knives. PHIL
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So how many more total cuts did the S30V make than the CPM154?
 
Kohai999 said:
My original point is that Cliff is quoting fairly obscure work, I doubt it is on the bestseller list in Germany, and is virtually unobtainable here in the Good Ol US of A. That is all.

STeven Garsson
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That is fairly normal for Cliff he also will refer to posts made at rec.knives from the early to mid 90s, videos not available,other more known posters, and alot of other non realated info to confuse instead of clearify. Clowd his points with alot of "white noise" as he has refered to it. Thank goodness there are still great posts like Phil Wilsons to clear things up. My hat is off to him and most everyone else who tries to inform and help the rest of us understand instead of argue.. .
 
Larrin, both blades kept cutting but the CPM 154 blade gradually required more pressure. This is what you would expect. As long as the edge does not roll or break off the cutting is a function of wear resistance. The Vanadium carbides in the 30V will keep it cutting with less pressure for a longer time. This test is not as formal or precise as what Cliff is doing but I think that as other makers start to use this steel that what I found from one test will be confirmed. I have not seen a data sheet from Crucible yet on this steel so don't know how impact toughness compares to others like D2 yet. PHIL
 
Although I have had some poor S30V blades that did chip from light use, I've had others that held up well. Yesterday, I was doing habitat assessment along a remote salmon stream when the salmonberry and devil's club became just too much. I had to use my Spyderco Military as a machete. Not only did the experience give me a new appreciation of the Military and the cutting power of its flat-ground blade, but the S30V steel was barely affected. It resharpened easily on a Sharpmaker. I've had Aus8 fail under this type of use.

I'm convinced that S30V is a great knife steel, and I'm also convinced that it can be and has been screwed up by some makers, even makers with excellent credentials. Since it's a fairly new steel, the learning curve can be steep.

In my opinion, makers have not been forthcoming about the problems, probably because they don't want to have a rash of returns.

I've seen a wide range of performance from S30V blades. The problem we have as consumers is knowing where on the performance spectrum the knife we order will fall.
 
I carry a S30V blade - an effortless outstanding cutter that keeps going and going ....easily tuned up on a 10" ceramic steel - then keeps going and go...

Took a re-heat-treat and a good bit of experimentation with geometry / edge finish to put it where it is today.

If I had used the tool once and returned it to the manufacturer - I'd have sworn off S30V forever.


MAT
 
Twindog said:
I'm convinced that S30V is a great knife steel, and I'm also convinced that it can be and has been screwed up by some makers, even makers with excellent credentials.........

In my opinion, makers have not been forthcoming about the problems, probably because they don't want to have a rash of returns.

I've seen a wide range of performance from S30V blades. The problem we have as consumers is knowing where on the performance spectrum the knife we order will fall.
Click to expand...

What do you base these opinions on, if I may ask, what observations, SPECIFICALLY, have you made?

What knives have you seen fail, by what makers?

Frankly, as consumers, we never know when we have a bad product, generally speaking, until it fails. This is true for automobiles, air rebreathers in mines, washing machines, FIREARMS and yes, even knives.

Following up the post of facts and field observations of Mr. Phil Wilson with conjecture and "opinion" is stepping into a big pile.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Kohai999 said:
Hans, I don't want to turn this into a debate about language, but if Cliff had a definitive tome on metallurgy in Aramaic, and was the only one with English crib notes, would you get your panties in a wad then?

The unifying language on this forum is English, in case you were confused or something.:rolleyes:

Und nicht traten die Vereinigten Staaten den Misten aus den Deutschen heraus nicht so vor langer Zeit? Lassen Sie sich nicht zu grosser, kleiner Mann, es aussehen läßt Sie nur der Dummkopf scheinen!


Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
Click to expand...


and a tip of my hat to you Phil...................best regards, TM

:D :eek: :D
 
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