S30v

[tom mayo]

Sure the threads are out there, as with all the other steels.

Is it me? Or does it seem that Cliff has a personal vendetta against
Crucible/S30V.

No, rather, much like the Blues brothers, he is on a mission................


Hey I like the stuff, it works great

 

[hardheart]

Well, this doesn't desreve it's own thread, so-I just did a mini test on my Skirmish. It's #196/1000 of the 1st production run, which is why I haven't used it much. It's seen very little pocket time over the years, mostly because of size, but also because I hate sharpening recurves. Factory edge, which is a bit rough, nowhere near a polish but still shaves readily. I cut up a cardboard box, total of about 85 cuts. Mostly pull, but I did some push and tried to use the entire edge equally. Cutting wasn't too easy, but that's because of the geometry. Could notice not so micro serrations on the edge, like I said, not a very polished factory job. Not chips in the edge, more like tiny teeth protruding ever so slightly. Afterward, still shaved arm and leg hair, did one pass on each side with a cerahone and hand american steel just to make sure the edge was clean when finished.

Nothing in depth or even interesting. Just one more S30V knife that does what a knife is supposed to do. It cut stuff. I don't have a problem with S30V, but it could have a higher incidence of edge chipping than comparable steels in normal production parameters. It's nothing to argue endlessly over. They can work out the kinks or move on to another steel. I think it received way too much hype, but is still a good steel.

The only knife I ever did have a chipping problem with was a 440V/S60V Gunting, it was chipped brand new out of the box.

 

[Kaizen1]

I'm guessing that the intention ignoramus is presenting is to create a list of lemons so people avoid buying them.

But you know what they say about people who assume...

I just it would be interesting information to factor in to help people draw their own conclusions about a specific model. I did consider that if a particular model kept showing up, it may indicate something. As AllenC said, it would also be a good idea to name which ones haven't had any issues as well. Besides, I wouldn't really consider it "badmouthing" if the ELU's intention is merely to convey actual fact from their experience and to let people come to their own conclusions. Hey, if we see 60 cases of the Camillus Dominators (Only using them as an example because they went belly up- unfortunately) chipping under normal use, don't the potential ELUs deserve to know that?

 

[Knife Outlet]

On an amusing note, your stance is somewhat ironic considering :

"... I'll challenge your comments about Boye Dendritic as well. The material is no longer available because nobody would use it (except Boye himself) and the reason was that it was too brittle and too delicate (something you get sometimes with high edge retention.) Personally, I had two Boye Dendritic blades and both of them snapped, not while prying, but while slicing. It was certainly a high tech version of 440C but it wasn't a good one for knife blades. The knife industry won't miss it. "

This is you contending Swaim's praise of D-440C. Now how is what you reported and concluded there any different from what people are doing with S30V. You go even further and say it should not be used for knives in general.

I guess I don't understand the comparison. What I said about Dendritic 440C is true experience. What I say about my experiences with S30V is true as well. I thought Dendritic 440C was awful stuff and I really did snap two of Boye's blades without doing anything abusive. I've used normal 440C blades for decades - always with good results.

Others may have had problems with S30V blades. I have not. My comment was simply that the failed blades could have failed because the heat treatment was improper. I'm suggesting that it may not be an inherent problem with the alloy. My own experience suggests that.

I have hammered my S30V chef knife (sharpened with a 15 degree edge) through a block of frozen pasta sauce with a meat tenderizer. And I've done it more than once. I wish my wife would freeze the stuff in smaller containers. That knife is hardened to around RC58 and behaves really well. I have pried with my S30V Sebenza and cut yards of cardboard without chipping an edge. I don't know what the blade hardness is but I do know that it is a strong and reliable blade. My S30V Spydercos have always behaved perfectly. I'm sure there are some bad S30V blades available. I just haven't run into any myself and I've used S30V a lot so the bad ones might be a small minority that have gotten a lot of internet "press."

It seems like you're saying that because I didn't think much of Dendritic 440C I should let others not think much about S30V without commenting? I'm not sure I understand that. I didn't get anything else out of the comparison. I'm sorry some folks have gotten bad S30V blades. It is just hard for me to imagine that the alloy itself is defective given all the good things people have said about it and my own experience with it.

 

[tsdevanna]

Alot of good stuff here !
Just got back from the Knifemakers Guild Show - good show & great people.

CPMS30V is a good steel but it is not perfect. We(Crucible) are working on that. We do not want to be complacent so we will try to make it better. One of the legitmate complaints we listened to and acted on was that CPMS30V was difficult to finish. We decided to offer a more user(knife maker) friendly grade, CPM154. So far, feed back has been positive. We have cleaned up the CPM154 so finish and polishability has improved.

We do visit many of these forums. A great source of feedback and information. One of the contributors to this thread once stated on another Blade Forums thread that - the number of complaints about CPMS30V knives chipping was "staggering". At the time I was a bit pissed off and wondered how does he know how much of this grade we sell and how many knives are made out of CPMS30 to use a word like "staggering" ? Then it hit me, one complaint is one to many! We hear you and we are working on it !

Lastly, we do try to keep a low profile in and around the forums but we will continue to attend more and more shows and we are always available via phone, e-mail or stop by and visit us hear anytime. The knife community is great to deal with and we are here to stay.

Thanks

T.Scott Devanna
800 365 1168

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I thought Dendritic 440C was awful stuff and I really did snap two of Boye's blades without doing anything abusive.

I don't doubt it, just that I don't doubt the problems reported with S30V either. Consider how you reacted to your problems with D-440C even though lots of people had perfectly good experience with D-440C including some very discriminating users such as Harvey and Swaim as well as the performance testing done by Boye. This didn't stop you from saying that you didn't feel D-440C was suitable for knives because you had problems with two knives. It is hard for you to critize others for making the same conclusions about S30V in the exact same situation.

Can we get a list together about which specific models in S30V have had this issue?

It hasn't been a list of specific models that I have seen. Problems have been reported with Benchmade, Spyderco, Buck and Reeve. Some of them go away with sharpening, some of them do not and the reverse is true as well. Some of the rehardening that people have done have shown really low hardness value which would point to a potential problem, some of them are definately too hard as well as they crack apart on the stone.

ZDP-189 is a similar class steel, high wear, powder metal, stainless and in CATRA tests significantly out cuts S30V, so if that impresses you then ZDP-189 is definately "superior" to S30V. The number of problems reported with it are also infrequent but the volume of it so far is very low and in general the people with problems with S30V have not used it, so it could be a discrimination issue as well.

-Cliff

 

[Deadhead Archer]

I just it would be interesting information to factor in to help people draw their own conclusions about a specific model. I did consider that if a particular model kept showing up, it may indicate something. As AllenC said, it would also be a good idea to name which ones haven't had any issues as well. Besides, I wouldn't really consider it "badmouthing" if the ELU's intention is merely to convey actual fact from their experience and to let people come to their own conclusions. Hey, if we see 60 cases of the Camillus Dominators (Only using them as an example because they went belly up- unfortunately) chipping under normal use, don't the potential ELUs deserve to know that?

The only reason why I discredit this idea as a bad idea is that internet forums are not reliable for polling this sort of data. One guy chips his S30V blade by dropping it on a cement floor. Another by cutting newsprint. Suddenly, you'll have this huge list of bad models with many other enthusiasts swearing that they've never had problems with theirs.

Does that make the individuals who say they have a problem wrong? No, but it does show that the means of gathering evidence for scientific study on a bulletin board isn't going to be factual.

The best solution: use your own S30V blades and base your own conclusions.

 

[Thomas Linton]

So what have we learned? Sometimes S30V blades are good and sometimes they are not -- and it's not entirely clear why -- and we can't always differentiate by maker?

 

[joeshredd]

Alot of good stuff here !
Just got back from the Knifemakers Guild Show - good show & great people.

CPMS30V is a good steel but it is not perfect. We(Crucible) are working on that. We do not want to be complacent so we will try to make it better. One of the legitmate complaints we listened to and acted on was that CPMS30V was difficult to finish. We decided to offer a more user(knife maker) friendly grade, CPM154. So far, feed back has been positive. We have cleaned up the CPM154 so finish and polishability has improved.

We do visit many of these forums. A great source of feedback and information. One of the contributors to this thread once stated on another Blade Forums thread that - the number of complaints about CPMS30V knives chipping was "staggering". At the time I was a bit pissed off and wondered how does he know how much of this grade we sell and how many knives are made out of CPMS30 to use a word like "staggering" ? Then it hit me, one complaint is one to many! We hear you and we are working on it !

Lastly, we do try to keep a low profile in and around the forums but we will continue to attend more and more shows and we are always available via phone, e-mail or stop by and visit us hear anytime. The knife community is great to deal with and we are here to stay.

Thanks

T.Scott Devanna
800 365 1168

But this is why I hang around Blade Forums - the guys that produce, whether it be the steel or the blades, both factory and custom,show up and take the heat or the pat on the back! :thumbup:

And through their info, I've learned a lot....

 

[Kaizen1]

The only reason why I discredit this idea as a bad idea is that internet forums are not reliable for polling this sort of data. One guy chips his S30V blade by dropping it on a cement floor. Another by cutting newsprint. Suddenly, you'll have this huge list of bad models with many other enthusiasts swearing that they've never had problems with theirs.

Does that make the individuals who say they have a problem wrong? No, but it does show that the means of gathering evidence for scientific study on a bulletin board isn't going to be factual.

The best solution: use your own S30V blades and base your own conclusions.

I do agree with you on your points and it does seem like it's not specific to any particular models. Keep in mind that I did say "normal use". It would be very important that we know how it was chipped if they want to contribute to the list. But we should also keep in mind, we use other people's experience with the performance of these knives in other ways like lock mechanisms, edge retention, etc. Why wouldn't it apply here? Again keeping in mind that the issue being described is articulated accurately. I can't afford to personally buy every knife I'm interested in just to see if it works fine. Lastly, I also understand that it may be the steel itself and the model may have no relevance to the performance of the steel.

It hasn't been a list of specific models that I have seen. Problems have been reported with Benchmade, Spyderco, Buck and Reeve. Some of them go away with sharpening, some of them do not and the reverse is true as well. Some of the rehardening that people have done have shown really low hardness value which would point to a potential problem, some of them are definately too hard as well as they crack apart on the stone.

So it seems like you see it as a flaw in the material itself as opposed to some sort of bad batch(?).

Alot of good stuff here !
Just got back from the Knifemakers Guild Show - good show & great people.

CPMS30V is a good steel but it is not perfect. We(Crucible) are working on that. We do not want to be complacent so we will try to make it better. One of the legitmate complaints we listened to and acted on was that CPMS30V was difficult to finish. We decided to offer a more user(knife maker) friendly grade, CPM154. So far, feed back has been positive. We have cleaned up the CPM154 so finish and polishability has improved.

We do visit many of these forums. A great source of feedback and information. One of the contributors to this thread once stated on another Blade Forums thread that - the number of complaints about CPMS30V knives chipping was "staggering". At the time I was a bit pissed off and wondered how does he know how much of this grade we sell and how many knives are made out of CPMS30 to use a word like "staggering" ? Then it hit me, one complaint is one to many! We hear you and we are working on it !

Lastly, we do try to keep a low profile in and around the forums but we will continue to attend more and more shows and we are always available via phone, e-mail or stop by and visit us hear anytime. The knife community is great to deal with and we are here to stay.

Thanks

T.Scott Devanna
800 365 1168

I agree with Joeshredd. I love to see a company with integrity. I wish the best for you guys:thumbup: .

 

[Kaizen1]

I also wanted to add that out of the many threads I've read on this site, this is the first time I've even heard of an issue with S30V, so it can't be all that bad. Every other thread I've seen about a knife in S30V has been nothing but praise. I've read praise about the Manixes, the Chinooks, the Sebenzas, the Ritter Grips. I'm actually amazed at the amount of negative results people have experienced here. And as much as I'm reading about the negative potential today, I'm still convinced that S30V is still a high class steel.

 

[Thomas W]

I think the positive S30V commentary has far outweighed the negative.

You have had some pretty big names in the industry stand up in defense of S30V. I certainly value the words of Phil Wilson, Chris Reeve, Tom Mayo, RJ Martin, Larrin, and others.
I'm pretty sure they wouldn't exercise such avid vocabulary if S30V was as problematic as some make it out to be. Add in the fact that almost all manufacturers utilize S30V in one form or another, and it seems we have a prominent majority that is in favor of S30V.

 

[tom mayo]

Alot of good stuff here !
Just got back from the Knifemakers Guild Show - good show & great people.

CPMS30V is a good steel but it is not perfect. We(Crucible) are working on that. We do not want to be complacent so we will try to make it better. One of the legitmate complaints we listened to and acted on was that CPMS30V was difficult to finish. We decided to offer a more user(knife maker) friendly grade, CPM154. So far, feed back has been positive. We have cleaned up the CPM154 so finish and polishability has improved.

We do visit many of these forums. A great source of feedback and information. One of the contributors to this thread once stated on another Blade Forums thread that - the number of complaints about CPMS30V knives chipping was "staggering". At the time I was a bit pissed off and wondered how does he know how much of this grade we sell and how many knives are made out of CPMS30 to use a word like "staggering" ? Then it hit me, one complaint is one to many! We hear you and we are working on it !

Lastly, we do try to keep a low profile in and around the forums but we will continue to attend more and more shows and we are always available via phone, e-mail or stop by and visit us hear anytime. The knife community is great to deal with and we are here to stay.

Thanks

T.Scott Devanna
800 365 1168

so there you are......call scott anytime...

if you need his cell number email me!!!!!!!!!

 

[thombrogan]

It is also somewhat odd to propose the idea (not you Thom) that you should thank a manufacturer for promoting their product. In general it is actually the consumer who is to be thanked for listening to someone who is trying to sell them something, not the other way around.

In the case of cutlery steel, it's not odd at all. There are a lot of mills making a lot of steels which may be great in a lot of different knives, but their minimum order requirements make these steels unobtainable to all but the larger knife manufacturers. Otherwise, we end-users are left having to 'settle.' We're steel-junkies and Crucible is happy to give us our fix.

Also glad to see the Cimmerian/Conan references dropped from the username of the active Crucible metallurgist (active only meaning employed).

 

[Kohai999]

1. I would again like to salute Crucible Metals for stepping up to the plate, and offering contact information, this says to me as a user and as a person who is asked what they think of a specific steel producing company, that.....

2. Crucible Metals is, and continues to be active in the cutlery industry, accepting blame where it is to be laid, and continuing to produce quality products available to the "average" knifemaker.

3. No steel is perfect, and we can find faults in just about every steel, depending upon usage(INFI in salt water environments, anyone?)

4. BladeForums ROCKS in bringing out some very knowledgeable personnel with specific experiences and knowledge...(Larrin Thomas, the guy from Crucible, RJ Martin, OwenM, Tom Mayo, Thomas W(where are you Sal Glesser?), Thom Brogan, Phil Wilson, yes, even, Cliff Stamp) for a spirited and differing perspective on one of the "new" darlings of cutlery steel.

I think that we have all learned a lot, but it is academic until you pony up your cash, pick a maker, use the heck out of the knife, and have at it(report back when you have something to say)!

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[razorsdescent]

Id just like to thank everyone who is posting on this thread ive learned alot.

For what its like i am a fan of s30v and its never let me down.

 

[The Mastiff]

The number of problems reported with it are also infrequent but the volume of it so far is very low and in general the people with problems with S30V have not used it, so it could be a discrimination issue as well.

Cliff, I'm one that has used both and had trouble with S30V. I've never had a bit of trouble with the Hitachi steel. You might recall I'm the one that stated I had a native chip on a plastic dog treat bag. That's about the only thing it had cut and it was a brand new knife, thoroughly examined by me at the time of sale as it was a wal-m*** knife. Other knives I own that use S30V steel are very good cutters, not bad to resharpen etc. I do prefer the ZDP 189 steel overall.

Reading the post from crucibell I get the impression they are betting on the CPM 154 as their next big seller. I almost get the feeling they are going to send S30V the way of S60V despite their statement about making it better. The logical part of me argues against this though due to the amount of users.

A recent knife magazine article came out and almost called CPM 154 the perfect steel. Have you tested it comparing it to plain old 154 which we were told was the best some years ago ( after ATS34 was the best, but nearly identical 154 was "cleaner", and before 440V and then 420V)

 

[Larrin]

Reading the post from crucibell I get the impression they are betting on the CPM 154 as their next big seller. I almost get the feeling they are going to send S30V the way of S60V despite their statement about making it better. The logical part of me argues against this though due to the amount of users.

Everything I've heard from talking to Crucible is that this is in no way true. CPM154 was just designed to have near-performance of S30V while being free of vanadium carbides for ease of finishing.

 

[tsdevanna]

CPM154 will never be a big seller and we know that. For all around performance CPMS30V will always be a better knife blade steel. We introduced CPM154 as a more user friendly premium quality 400 series knife blade steel. CPM154 is specifically targeted at the custom knifemaker. We sell it primarily in pieces to the custom makers. If a production company decides to use it we will of course accommodate them. It is an upgrade to 154CM and 154CM equivalents. I hope this realigns your "impression".

 

[hardheart]

Considering the number of ats34/154cm production blades produced over the years, I wonder why you feel cpm154 wouldn't be used by manufacturers? the only reason I can think of is cost. If it costs more to purchase 154, or to manufacture with it in comparison to s30v, then I can see manufacturers not wanting to use it. But if it outperforms 154cm, I see no reason for them to avoid it. 440C hasn't been considered a top stainless for some time now, and it's still used in plenty of production and handmade knives.