S30v

[Cougar Allen]

I think STFU is one of those acronyms (like SNAFU, FUBAR, RTFM, etc.) that are considered acceptable in polite conversation. If a small child or an elderly aunt asks what they stand for you can always substitute Freak, Fouled, Friendly ... if she giggles then you can guess she was not fooled, but even so a semblance of propriety is maintained.

 

[db]

2. You are certainly not a Moderator, and are kind of a newb, but for the most part seem like a decent guy. You just have no idea what does NOT get posted on the Forums, and what kind of back information and communiques are going on.

I find that very interesting does this thread only have part of what is going on? I guess I'd thought since people posted here they wouldn't be also privatly posting to each other.
"
Cliff, Phil Wilson, and Thom Brogan have got it about hashed out as far as I can figure.

I think they are still disagreeing Phil Wilson posts that S30v is easier to heat treat, and Cliff and Thom seem to disagree that it is or at least shouldn't have been promoted as such.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

It's very nice that Crucible has taken interest in a relatively small market.

Steel companies have always made steels which are designed/optomized to hold a fine cutting edge. This isn't a small market and includes things like sissors, chisels, etc. . The high end personal carry cutlery is of course a fairly small and somewhat elite market however it isn't like it demands different properties. All you have to do to find steels which are optomized for cutting is to read any book on tool steels or talk to a metallurgist who isn't tied to the cutlery industry like Verhoeven.

It is also somewhat odd to propose the idea (not you Thom) that you should thank a manufacturer for promoting their product. In general it is actually the consumer who is to be thanked for listening to someone who is trying to sell them something, not the other way around. If they make better products, excellent, however there are many that would contend strongly that S30V is actually a "better" steel, I think that whole viewpoint is in fact misleading and is just as silly as saying that a hammer is a better tool than a chisel.

S30V also has lower corrosion resistance by Q-fog than VG-10 (Spyderco). Now if Crucible was very open about details like this, noted that the high carbide fractions they require cause low edge stability, toughness, and issues with sharpening, etc. . Then I can see an arguement being made about appreciating the frankness in the promotion. Similar for example how manufactures like Spyderco and makers like Wilson will not only promote what their steels/knives can do well, but where they are outperformed.

I would agree that Thom has layed a solid overview of S30V, I do find it amusing it is accepted given it noted significant hype and contradiction by those promoting the steel. I would however contend using the term wear resistance in regards to steels so loosely because it depends on the angle of the edge. A steel can have very low wear resistance if the angle is under the stability limit because the carbides just come out of the edge so it actually wears *faster* not slower.

Landes has a ranking called edge stability which is basically the angle the steel needs for the carbides to be stable. Johnston coined the exact same behavior over a dozen years ago on rec.knives, he called it edge integrity. This was discussed in detail on the knife list which was filled with high end knife makers so it isn't a little known subject. Mark Henry (Furi) has also discussed it in great detail and noted how the normal gross wear resistance tests don't extrapolate well to wear on a knife edge.

The Sandvik series of stainless steels are all based on high edge stability/integrity. This isn't something new and astounding from a tool steel perspective. The grain fracture size of 440C for example is 6.5, the tool steels used for fine cutting edges are 9-10. This is a power scale, so 10 is twice as fine as 9. Note as well if you look at the subject in detail, the edge retention for slicing is very different than edge retention for push cutting. A steel can be very low in one and high in another.

Really coarse steels will do well at high angles slicing abrasive material, and if you cut to a low sharpness (<10%) they can outperform the finer grained steels. However if you look at high sharpness, or push cutting sharpness it reverses. If you then look at the ease of sharpening in terms of metal removal or edge lifetime you get a different perspective as well.

-Cliff

 

[Phil in Alabama]

Mr. Stamp: for those of us who haven't the time to search out all the data, could you make us a chart of the common knife steels ranked by fineness of grain/grain fracture? It would be interesting reading.

 

[Satrang]

As posted by Cliff,
"It is also somewhat odd to propose the idea (not you Thom) that you should thank a manufacturer for promoting their product. In general it is actually the consumer who is to be thanked for listening to someone who is trying to sell them something, not the other way around. If they make better products, excellent, however there are many that would contend strongly that S30V is actually a "better" steel, I think that whole viewpoint is in fact misleading and is just as silly as saying that a hammer is a better tool than a chisel."

Up until Crucible got involved in the cutlery market, no other steel manufacturer paid any attention to the market or the people involved. It involved more than S30V it involved getting the market workable alloys such as 154CM, 440C, M2, A2, D2. It involved, HELPING, the industry metallurgically. It involved actually getting out into the market and becoming part of the industry not just sitting outside and playing arm chair quarterback.
Ask Phil if he believes that is just their motivation.

If you want to allude to Crucible's only interest in the market being sales, so be it. There are way many people "IN" the industry that would disagee with you.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Up until Crucible got involved in the cutlery market, no other steel manufacturer paid any attention to the market or the people involved.

There are lots of steels designed/optomized specifically for cutting tools including stainless steels specifically optomized for kitchen cutlery *not* made or designed by Crucible. Pretty much every tool steel manufacturer offers tool steels which make excellent knives and in fact offer versions of steels that people commonly think are specific Crucible steels like A11 (10V) as the manufacturers have their own names for the various AISI grades.

There are lots of individuals doing research on steels and cutlery (meaning published papers) which are not employed by Crucible and in fact which oppose the promotion of steels by Crucible. What developments in regards to advancing cutlery specific metallurgy do you attribute uniquely to Crucible. Those tool steels you listed are hardly unique to Crucible.

Phil, a simple ranking of grain size is the fracture grain size test, 10=F2, 9.5=HSS, 9=W1, 52100, etc., 8.5=A2, VascoWear, 8=L6, 7.5=D2, 6.5=440C. This is a power rank so 10 is twice as fine as 9. This of course assumes optimal heat treatment.

-Cliff

 

[Kohai999]

Up until Crucible got involved in the cutlery market, no other steel manufacturer paid any attention to the market or the people involved. It involved more than S30V it involved getting the market workable alloys such as 154CM, 440C, M2, A2, D2. It involved, HELPING, the industry metallurgically. It involved actually getting out into the market and becoming part of the industry not just sitting outside and playing arm chair quarterback.
Ask Phil if he believes that is just their motivation.

If you want to allude to Crucible's only interest in the market being sales, so be it. There are way many people "IN" the industry that would disagee with you.

As far as support to the cutlery industry goes, this brings up some interesting points.

Although S30 may not be ideal for all knives, in all situations;

1. It it the first steel that I ever heard of specifically designed for knives, WITH input from those in the KNIFE industry, and I am not talking about slitting knives for fabric, either.

2. Crucible is the only company that I have ever seen directly represented at knife shows.

3. At the knife shows that I have been to, Crucible was handing out books, not booklets, "Tool Steel and Specialty Alloy Selector". These were not advertising geared towards the end user, these were metallurgical workbooks(the ones with the orange plastic covers, and black writing) geared towards the maker/manufacturer, helping to make a better, more informed decision on Crucible's offerings.

I have never seen another steel manufacturer take such a visible role in the cutlery industry, and I am only 1/2 "IN" the industry.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Cliff Stamp]

1. It it the first steel that I ever heard of specifically designed for knives.

There are *lots* of production steels designed/optomized specifically for knives - check Stewarts comments on the history of "CarbonV". Look past Crucible and specifically look outside the US, check the Sandvik steels for example. VG-10 for was also promoted this way for a long time. There are also mass amounts of tool steels designed specifically to hold a sharp cutting edge or moving beyond light precision knives, which also work very well for larger knives do to a high combation of strength/toughness. These are not unique of course to Crucible. People who forge knives have also been making steels for knives for a very long time.

Crucible was handing out books, not booklets, "Tool Steel and Specialty Alloy Selector". These were not advertising geared towards the end user, these were metallurgical workbooks(the ones with the orange plastic covers, and black writing) geared towards the maker/manufacturer, helping to make a better, more informed decision on Crucible's offerings.

I have that, now read your last sentance carefully, in particular the last three words. Tool steel manufacturers in general are always willing to heavily promote their product. Hence the wealth of available data sheets from manufacturers. Read a book on tool steels and see where a lot of the data actually comes from. It is just compiled by the guys who write the book, they don't actually do all the measurements.

You realize of course that there are a lot of people making competing products and quite frankly they will contradict each other on which is "superior" because they are all pretty much superior in some regard. Note how many of them list the weak points of their products and the strong points of those in competition with them. Verhoeven's work has been available for a long time, does the 154CM section in Crucible's book note how he shows how Sandvik 13C26 is superior in many ways? Do you really expect it to? Read the exchanges in the Spyderco form where a japanese metallurgist opposed the use of high vanadium in cutlery steels.

-Cliff

 

[Kohai999]

EARTH TO CLIFF!!

Since you ignore most of what people write, and cherry pick, I'll go back to asking questions.

1. I SAID that S30V was the only steel specifically designed for cutlery that I had heard of, not the only one that existed. What other specific steels besides VG-10 were designed specifically for knife blades, held in the hand?

2. Have you seen ANY other steel manufacturers besides Crucible at knife shows, buying tables, setting up, exposing themselves to stupid questions from everyone? Hitachi offers crappy customer service to steel users, Phil Wilson said it, and Spyderco told me that the other day when I called them.

Now answer these specific questions.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[RJ Martin]

Boy, there is a lot of "stuff" in this thread. But not a lot of factual information.
Crucible INVENTED the particle metallurgy process used to make their CPM alloys. They are not sintered, like powdered metals. Therefore, there is no binder, and no porosity. A link to their unique process is here:

www.cruciblecompaction.com/process/index.cfm

The particle metallurgy process is KEY to the goal of the process, which is to be able to make steels with higher percentages of alloying additions than by other methods, and to keep these alloying additions finely and uniformly distributed throughout the steel.

Now, everyone is entitled to their own opinion about what they like in a knife, but, from an engineering and materials perspective, this stuff is awesome.
Having made hundreds of fixed blades and folders from it, I can tell you that the performance is great, if the HT is done correctly. Edge retention and sharpness are great. Toughness is excellent, especially in grades like 3V.

S30V is my "go to" alloy, and I have made about 500 knives with it. The number of S30V knives I have made that had problems in use? ZERO.

That's all I got to say about that.....

Stay Sharp,

RJ Martin

 

[hardheart]

Anybody seen those Dark Ops ads? They must make some pretty kick ass knives.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

The Sandvik series of steels (12c27m, 12C27, 13C26), 0170-6C, Kellam has one they blended custom, INFI is according to Busse. As well, as noted, there are lots of tool steels designed for cutting tools, in general people have found (surprise) they make good knives. You can also open up any tool steel reference book and get *full* information on them, not just the high points, where they are strong and where they are weak.

Steven, there are lots of knife makers who don't attend shows either. What does this imply about the quality of their knives, or their willingless to help out others or "advance" the industry? As far as I know Mike Swaim never made much of an impact at any of the major shows however his work is the fundamental basis for a lot of the internet discussion on knife performance - the factual part anyways.

Have you contacted the other steel manufactures and found them to be unwilling to share information about steels with you? I have even discussed the subject with the metallurgists who write the common tool steel reference books. None of them go to the knife trade shows though.

-Cliff

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Boy, there is a lot of "stuff" in this thread. But not a lot of factual information.

R.J. there have been lots of reports of problems with S30V, much more so than any other cutlery steel. This is real and factual data unless you want to argue some sort of mass conspiracy. There is also no arguement to explain it which is consistent with the promotion of the steel by Crucible.

Have you had problems in general with powder steels vs particle steels? Have you compared the two directly as the counterparts exist. RWL34 and CPM-154CM are very similar base alloys.

The number of S30V knives I have made that had problems in use? ZERO.

Most of the reports are with production knives however there are quite a number of reasons why this could be the case aside from direct performance simply due to cost/numbers

-Cliff

 

[Cobalt]

Boy, there is a lot of "stuff" in this thread. But not a lot of factual information.
Crucible INVENTED the particle metallurgy process used to make their CPM alloys. They are not sintered, like powdered metals. Therefore, there is no binder, and no porosity. A link to their unique process is here:

www.cruciblecompaction.com/process/index.cfm

The particle metallurgy process is KEY to the goal of the process, which is to be able to make steels with higher percentages of alloying additions than by other methods, and to keep these alloying additions finely and uniformly distributed throughout the steel.

Now, everyone is entitled to their own opinion about what they like in a knife, but, from an engineering and materials perspective, this stuff is awesome.
Having made hundreds of fixed blades and folders from it, I can tell you that the performance is great, if the HT is done correctly. Edge retention and sharpness are great. Toughness is excellent, especially in grades like 3V.

S30V is my "go to" alloy, and I have made about 500 knives with it. The number of S30V knives I have made that had problems in use? ZERO.

That's all I got to say about that.....

Stay Sharp,

RJ Martin

thanks for the link, that had some of the info I was looking for.

 

[Kohai999]

The Sandvik series of steels (12c27m, 12C27, 13C26), 0170-6C, Kellam has one they blended custom, INFI is according to Busse.

Steven, there are lots of knife makers who don't attend shows either. What does this imply about the quality of their knives, or their willingless to help out others or "advance" the industry? As far as I know Mike Swaim never made much of an impact at any of the major shows however his work is the fundamental basis for a lot of the internet discussion on knife performance - the factual part anyways.

Have you contacted the other steel manufactures and found them to be unwilling to share information about steels with you? I have even discussed the subject with the metallurgists who write the common tool steel reference books. None of them go to the knife trade shows though.

-Cliff

1. Thanks for the information about other companies. INFI, or the 1086M from Howard Clark,are not entirely apples-to-apples comparisons, due to the fact that these are not available for just any maker to purchase, they are made specifically to specifications for specific people/companies

2. All I am saying is that Crucible is directly supporting the cutlery industry in a visible way. This is not a slam on Uddleholm, Sandvik, Timken-Latrobe, Hitachi or any other steel manufacturer. IT MEANS that Crucible is investing back into the business of cutlery manufacture. Is it good marketing/advertising? I would hope so.

3. Just like individual steel choice with makers, metallurgists frequently come up with different findings. Neither Kevin Cashen nor Dr. Voerhoven work with complex stainless steel alloys, so the findings that they have concerning THESE materials are non-existant. I would even go so far as to say that in lectures, Dr. Voerhoven does not postulate on materials that he has not worked with.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[RJ Martin]

Cliff: I do not deny that there have been problems with knives made from S30V. But, I only have direct knowledge of MY experience with S30V, and, as I indicated, it has been a stellar performer for me and my customers. So, I didn't and won't comment on these problems-I will only say that I have not experienced them.

What I will say, and I have said it before, is that CPM alloys require absolutely first rate processing. This applies to every phase of manufacture, not just heat treating. Considering the wear resistance of the CPM alloys, it isn't hard to understand that these alloys don't respond well to being ground after heat treatment. Because they are so wear resistant, they wear out even the best belts rapidly-Often an order of magnitude faster than conventional alloys.
Worn belts mean rapid heat build-up, and, so, it should be easy to see that you can get into trouble quickly with these alloys if you're not respecting them. Apply this insight to the sharpening process and you'll understand why I use only the best quality, new belts for sharpening. And I use ridiculous numbers of them! Yes, this is a pain, and it's expensive, but, I have avoided problems by taking this approach, and the results are worth it.

I have never used RWL34, so, I can't comment on it from personal experience.
I have used CPM154CM, and, it is an upgrade over conventional 154CM, because of the benefits of the CPM processing. Has a better microstructure, finishes better and gets about 1 point harder with the same HT, too, which I like.

Remember, I am not saying that S30V always makes a better knife than steel XYZ. But there is no doubt in my mind that it has the potential to make a superior knife to steel XYZ if it is handled properly.

RJ Martin

 

[hardheart]

What makes S30V special? It seems to me that it's become another good steel to just add to the list. There are more stainless steels, tougher steels, steels that go harder, easier to sharpen steels, cheaper steels, more expensive steels, newer steels, blah, blah, blah.

I think a big problem for S30V is that it's supposed to be special. It was designed for the cutlery industry or something. It's still steel. There's no magic bullet, so it's going to have shortcomings in some area or the other. It's not going to work at every hardness used for every type of job, or in every profile. It still needs HT, it still has to be sharpened. Being a steel, those steps still have to be done in particular ways to get good performance, or it just might do something like chip-the reason for this thread.

Just for me, personally, I see no reason to get picky if a blade comes in VG10, BG42, S30V, or whatever else is on the continuously growing list of quality stainless. Crucible doing more than just supply steel to the industry is a fine reason to support them, as many in this thread have mentioned, but it doesn't impact on the actual performance of their product. It's good performance, just not terribly surprising, which I guess we were expecting when our hobby got it's 'very own steel'. At some point, I've still got to sharpen the blade, and my enjoyment of that chore is still going to depend on the kind of day I'm having.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Considering the wear resistance of the CPM alloys, it isn't hard to understand that these alloys don't respond well to being ground after heat treatment.

People using S30V are also using M2, D2, etc., so it isn't like they are unfamiliar with low grindability steels. In the S30V vs 440C document Crucible *promotes* ease of grinding for sharpening. It is the same thing with heat treatment, S30V was designed specifically to allow ease of heat treatment by knife makers, as opposed to tool steels which can require much more complex/demanding treatments. It is supposed to again be better, not worse in this respect. Just read the S30V vs 440C pdf file.

Remember, I am not saying that S30V always makes a better knife than steel XYZ. But there is no doubt in my mind that it has the potential to make a superior knife to steel XYZ if it is handled properly.

I think it is a solid high wear stainless, and I have many knives in it which I like, however I have seen problems, some significant and some not so significant. Can it be better than another steel, well every steel is better than every other steel in some respect and most attributes are far more complex than most people imply - especially when they are selling something. Edge retention is very complex as it depends on what you are cutting and how. A steel can be better on one material and worse in another, or better in the short term and worse in the long term on th same material, or better when cutting one way and worse in another at the same point in the same material.

All I am saying is that Crucible is directly supporting the cutlery industry in a visible way.

Is it a good thing that Crucible gives out information on steels. Sure, any factual information is a good thing. However just accepting what someone selling you on a product says is a very problematic viewpoint. Just because other manufacturers are not going to the US cutlery trade shows doesn't mean you have to ignore them. You can read their published research, talk to them, and go to their trade shows.

Neither Kevin Cashen nor Dr. Voerhoven work with complex stainless steel alloys, so the findings that they have concerning THESE materials are non-existant. I would even go so far as to say that in lectures, Dr. Voerhoven does not postulate on materials that he has not worked with.

Cashen has a webpage on steels and extrapolates on their behavior based on fundamental principles of metallurgy. This is actually the primary goal of scientific research, determine a pattern and predict behavior. Steels with coarse carbides have low edge retention at acute angles because the carbides tear out. This you learn from studying enough of those materials to understand the pattern. You then predict how other steels with the same structure will follow this pattern. Verhoeven has worked with the high alloy high carbide stainless steels of course, that is what he compared AEB-L to and how he deduced it was a carbide problem. Landes has worked with the CPM steels specifically and other powdered metals.

In regards to different findings, this is science not a subjective art, you don't dismiss contradictory work so trivially. You either have to publish a retraction or clarify/refine the models/hypothesis when new data is introduced or actually contend the findings based on method/logic. The big problem here is that the data is simply being ignored as it contradicts the current cutlery promotion. Just like Cashen's article on forging is getting no responce from those that heavily oppose it. This is not the way to advance knowledge.

-Cliff

 

[wwells20]

This may be backing up, but the more i learn about steel, the more I gravitate back to 440a, aus6&8, etc. Just last week, i used a 440a Mini-Mojo for a full week with no problems of edge retention.(cardboard, stripping wire, opening plastic bags, etc..) I know my "week" with this knife would be different than someone else's "week". I also know my "weeks" differ, so everything is realative. I'm just posting to say, sometimes we get too caught up in specs to see the trees. (get it?)

(sometimes we can't see the forest for the trees)

 

[Kohai999]

Cashen has a webpage on steels and extrapolates on their behavior based on fundamental principles of metallurgy. This is actually the primary goal of scientific research, determine a pattern and predict behavior. Steels with coarse carbides have low edge retention at acute angles because the carbides tear out. This you learn from studying enough of those materials to understand the pattern. You then predict how other steels with the same structure will follow this pattern.

Verhoeven has worked with the high alloy high carbide stainless steels of course, that is what he compared AEB-L to and how he deduced it was a carbide problem.
-Cliff

Cliff,

For the most part on THIS subject, I am done arguing with you. As usual, the experts come out, and you point to the holes in things that they say. You are an expert in arguing, and when the subject gets close to the appearance of you losing ground, you change the subject.

You quote Kevin, but you argue with him, relentlessly. Kevin told me specifically that he extrapolates nothing concerning stainless steels, because he does not work with them, and has no interest in them. There is nothing on his page that I saw concerning stainless steels.

Did Verhoven work with CPM steels? This is a simple yes or no question. Not did he work with another companies' steel, but did he work with Crucible CPM stainless steels?

STeven Garsson