s30v

[davmgt]

Interesting thread, but once again I would like to point out that the inferences made from the Buck tests (and other experiments) only apply to those subjects tested in those tests. You cant make inferences on convex grinds in general or BG42, 420, in general. Only on those knives tested. Again, they do not show that those tests can be replicated on all subjects with those grinds and/or those steels. They do NOT represent generalizable facts.

 

[Michael Lovett]

Hardheart, this was way back in the day. Before the 440 was added to the line.

 

[knarfeng]

Maybe I misunderstoof Cliff's point but it seems like the Lande's test is using an extremely fine edge and not a more common utility edge profile.

As the edge angle thickens then the edges will become inherently stable by geometry and there is thus no advantage to having the steel itself have a high edge stability. Of course the higher the edge angle the lower the cutting ability.
-Cliff

At what angle would you expect an S30V edge to become stablilized by geometric factors?

There are a number of factors to consider there such as the heat treatment which will effect the carbide volume and hardness and of course the user tolerances. What do you consider sharp? There are guys here who will sharpen knives when they stop push cutting newsprint then there are guys who will only sharpen thier knives when they can not cut their skin under high pressure. But as a general rule, subject to variances from the above, I would say around 20 degrees or so. Read the above link from Landes for a much greater detailed responce to this including his PDF file on the model of the edge which deals with this exact issue.
-Cliff

There are very few people who are sharpening their large knives at 20 degrees, 10 per side, or under on large knives. Heck there are darn few that sharpen that low on their small knives or even on kitchen knives.

So if the vast majority of people sharpen at 30°-40° inclusive, and you have to sharpen at less than 20° inclusive to see the phenomenon of carbides causing edge instability, does the instability really matter? I mean, it might be a real phenomenon, but, is it having an impact on anyone?

A low carbide blade with a 10° inclusive edge may outlast a 10° S30V blade, but would a low carbide blade with a 10° inclusive edge outlast an S30V blade with a 35° inclusive edge?

 

[MORIMOTOM]

ive read much of this thread.


i haven't a clue as to what many of you are saying.


i have several knives in s30v, i have found they stay sharp longer than the knives i have owned in 440, and often ats34 and 154cm.

ive never chipped s30v, but ive never chipped any of my knives. even with "hard" use.

its not my favorite, but its damn good metal.

 

[Hang_them_later]

I'd like to hear some hard facts about s30v instead of talk and opinions. Has anyone done a simple tensile test on this steel and made the result public? A simple stress/strain diagram would be nice!
Tensile strength? ......anyone?

From the Crucible data sheet I can read about:

The elastic modulus which is 221 GPa for every steel I know about.
Density 7.47 g/cm3, ok slightly lower than expected (7.8).
Thermal conductivity
Thermal expansion
Hardness
.......
.......
etc

But it seems to me that the interesting material parameters are left out in this sheet.

Strength at different heat treatments?
Plastic strain at breaking point?


Please note that I don´t want to offend anyone. I don´t want to support or discredit s30v in any way. All I'm after are some facts. We need some firm ground to stand on in this debate.

 

[Frank Hillary]

Hi Folks,

Great tread.

Just to help me along, what exactly is "edge stability"? I can undertand edge rolling or chiping or wear. Is it all three combnd?

Best Reagrds
Frank

 

[hardheart]

A low carbide blade with a 10° inclusive edge may outlast a 10° S30V blade, but would a low carbide blade with a 10° inclusive edge outlast an S30V blade with a 35° inclusive edge?

IIRC, I think that is Joe Talmadge's point, the lower included angle lasts longer and cuts better initially.

Hi Folks,

Great tread.

Just to help me along, what exactly is "edge stability"? I can undertand edge rolling or chiping or wear. Is it all three combnd?

Best Reagrds
Frank

Wear resistance is separate. This thread has a bit of related discussion and pictures
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=480202
you can see in the last two pics how the 440C edge with the larger carbides has worn much differently than the 13C26. Mete, a metallurgist, also comments on carbide affecting fracturing and tearing out.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

You didn't exactly "repeat" what you said - you elaborated on it with that "in certain applications"

No, I repeat the origional quote:

S90V for example has a very low edge stability and thus the edge holding will be FAR inferior to 420HC in a number of applications.

As noted, I qualified it.

Large choppers need edge bevels easily in excess of 20 degrees.

No they don't, mine are < 15 degrees at the very edge which is only about 0.015" thick. This is for cutting hard, seasoned pin-wood, on fresh wood with no knots it can be ran at 8-12 depended on the steel and type of wood.

Assuming convex edges are bad based on that data however is a leap of faith I doubt many will want to make.

Was never argued, however the opposite is said constantly.

Yeah, for the third time now, I'm wondering aloud how all this talk of edge stability applies to big chopping blades.

Edges with high stability tend to be very tough for similar reasons, they have low carbide levels for example, very fine grain, etc. .

Has this idea gotten anywhere yet?

Groups are assembled, makers have committed, but it is volunteer, I don't pressure people.

Doesn't howing one steel outcutting another when one has a more 'optimal' blade profile show nothing other than how important a good angle is to sharpening?

Yes, now understand that the high edge stability steels will offer superior edge holding at small angles. The conclusion should be obvious.

The shots taken at him regarding Mike's and Tai's work are nothing but deflections and are illogical to say the least.

No, they are perfectly logical. He branded the steel several times harshly and once when as far as to say he would be ASHAMED to even use it. Now how does statement compare with the fact that many other makers are not only proud to do so they are getting solid feedback.

Hey Cliff is Buck's 425 better at holding an edge than S30V too?

The edge stability would he higher yes.

-Cliff

 

[Bastid]

No, they are perfectly logical. He branded the steel several times harshly and once when as far as to say he would be ASHAMED to even use it. Now how does statement compare with the fact that many other makers are not only proud to do so they are getting solid feedback.

All makers are not the same, they even use different methods and equipment. They have preferences as to what they want to use on the knives they make. Jerry made the statement regarding his knives. You extended it to other makers. That is not logic, but it is stirring the pot and causing trouble.

Like I said a steel that is great for one maker may not be great for another.

Using your logic, a steel great for one maker is great for all makers. No logic there at all.

Just because a maker does not like a material or steel for their knives your logic allows you to extend that to say the maker is disparaging makers that do use the material. That is illogic and speculation not logic.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Jerry made the statement regarding his knives. You extended it to other makers. That is not logic, but it is stirring the pot and causing trouble.

He noted it had specific properties, I asked him if the knives used by those other makers had those properties. This is a test of logic, does his conclusion hold in GENERAL. He asserted properties of low carbide steels which is in direct opposition of how those makers describe the same steels. This again is a perfectly valid point.

-Cliff

 

[Bastid]

He noted it had specific properties, I asked him if the knives used by those other makers had those properties. This is a test of logic, does his conclusion hold in GENERAL. He asserted properties of low carbide steels which is in direct opposition of how those makers describe the same steels. This again is a perfectly valid point.

-Cliff

Jerry stated he would not use the material on his knives (would be embarassed to). That pertains to his knives and his equipment and his techniques.

He did not say other makers should feel the same. He made the statement over the knives he makes.

Your inference to what he said is not perfect, valid or logical. You are putting words in another persons mouth so to speak and that is not logic.

You may be correct on the steel, you are incorrect on the intention and your inference of what Jerry posted. That is a fact.

 

[Bastid]

The test of logic. Jerry did not make the statement in GENERAL when he said he would not use the steel. He did not say the steel should not be used. When you put what he said into your "logic" of making it a general statement it became illogic.

He made the statement over his knives. If he had made the statement that all or any makers should be embarrassed to use the material you point would be perfect and valid.

He did not say or post a GENERAL statement. You are the one who took it there. His point is valid for what he does. Your point is neither perfect nor valid in extending what he said.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

He did not say other makers should feel the same. He made the statement over the knives he makes.

Again, he attributed properties to the steel. Other makers use that steel and steels of the same class. It is perfectly logical to ask if those makers knives can also be expected to have the same failings. They of course do NOT which is why the question was asked. It is perfectly logical to test the consequences of a conclusion.

Now as a side note, it would also be logical to address the statement of the steel being an embarassment to use as a maker. This was clearly noted to be due to the properties of the steel, then logically the same would be said about any knife in general which had those properties would it not? We are not talking about aesthetic issues but ones of edge holding (general) and edge durability (general).

Now if an individual stated these properties are so low it is embarassing then how would such an individual view knives in general made out of those steels? This again is just a logical extension of the arguement again checking the validity of the conclusion stated by looking at the consequences. This of course is never done by Hossom who constantly makes broad assertions with NO FACTUAL support and ignores conflicting statements by other makers.

-Cliff

 

[Bastid]

Cliff,

Here is a simple point that is not being grasped.

If I say I don't like X and I am embarrassed to be associated with X. It does not follow logic for you to say what you have said. I can be embarrassed regarding X, but that does not that I am implying everyone everyone should be.

It is illogic to even make the assumption that you have made.

Note Jerry did not say steel being an embarrassment to "use as a maker". He said he was embarrassed to use it. If he said everyone should be embarrassed to use it your logic would be valid.

As such that logic that is applied is invalid.

 

[Jerry Hossom]

Well, Cliff you can at least now write about something you understand, which is nonsense. The ONLY person who knows what I wrote and what was intended by it is ME.

Once again you're pursuing an argument out of context, inferring things that have no basis in fact, then drawing conclusions from your own falacious inferences.

A LOT of time is being spent arguing about my "embarrassed" comment, which was probably made as much to reinforce my personal thoughts about using a steel in the 1050 class for heavy edge impacts as it was an opinion about that steel in particular. I have strong feelings on the subject because I have a sense from my personal testing what are the failure modes and weaknesses of hypo-eutechtoid steels in knife applications. That is why I (and most other knifemakers) don't use high shock resistant steels like S7, CPM-1V, etc. in our knives. They don't do well in thin sections. Maybe if you dump a lot of Chrome into them they will do better, but not better enough for use in one of MY knives.

I've got a show to attend. I'll be at the Guild Show until Monday. Play fair...

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I can be embarrassed regarding X, but that does not that I am implying everyone everyone should be.

Of course not, but if I said "As a devoute christian and preacher I am embarassed to have a copy of that book in my house as it depicts unholy associations between man and woman." it does makes such a statement. There was obviously a maker connection in the above as it was connected to "my knives."

Now if you just said, "That steel embarasses me." You could not make much of a consequence prediction as there is no quantification. WHy does it embarass you would be the logical question but he already said that clearly.

You are also ignore the PROPERTIES associated with the steels which he stated very clearly. I contended if these statements were true then the same properties would also have to be found on knives with those steels. If this is true you either have to conclude :

1) those other makers should also be embarassed or
2) they do not care about all the "embarassing qualities" of the steel; edge holding, edge strength, etc.

Again clearly, the makers who use such knives, does ANYONE contend that the performance of their knives is as embarassing as Hossom describes? Do the people using Tai's knives find their edges deflect and roll very easily? How about Stewarts 12C27M knives which are ground very acute at the edge?

How about Landes who notes his knives are at the 8-12 degree level for such steels?

How about dealing with ANY of the wide statement such as Hossom has noted which are directly contradicted by scores of makers. I have used multiple large knives out of low carbide steels for large choppers from guys like Kirk and the edges ae far under 20+ degrees per side and they do not deflect easily.

-Cliff

* I am neither a christian or a preacher, I am agnostic.

 

[Bastid]

Of course not, but if I said "As a devoute christian and preacher I am embarassed to have a copy of that book in my house as it depicts unholy associations between man and woman." it does makes such a statement.

No it does not. It makes a statement about that individual, but it does not imply that the book is an embarrassment to all devout Christians just that one.

If the illustration you used was "if I said "As a devoute christian and preacher any devout christian should be embarassed to have a copy of that book in my house as it depicts unholy associations between man and woman." it would.

Again. Bad logic makes for poor conclusions. (unless you are saying you can read minds.)

Cliff, again one steel may be great for a knife maker, it may be poor for another. There are factors such as heat treat, equipment, experience, market and many other things that are a big part of why and you are ignoring them.

Knife makers are not made from the same cookie cutter, neither is the equipment, experience, material source (in most cases).

 

[ashtxsniper]

O the evil thought the evil thoughts.

 

[Cougar Allen]

Gentlebeings, we are here to talk about ideas, not about people. We are talking about steels. Steels have identifiable characteristics, hardness, toughness, strength, etc., that can be tested and discussed rationally.

 

[Bastid]

The only thing that I can logically conclude from what was written, is that Jerry does not use the steel or like it for the knives he makes.

Everything else extending from what he said is assumption.