s30v

[Cliff Stamp]

When you use it in the same paragraph it's ok?

I qualified it you do not hence your statements are undefined. Since you constantly rant about scientific method you would think the basic fundamental of stating any conclusion, you need to state the conditions in which the conclusions are valid.

The situations in which it is (440A > 440C in edge retention) is true should be obvious since I noted it several times in the above, cited published works, and even gave a DIRECT example of the specific type of cutting.

Verhoeven WHO SPEAKS ENGLISH also noted 440C was poor in this regard compared to steels like 12C27M because of carbide instability citing PUBLISHED works. Since he writes in english there is no excuse for ignoring him.

I will repeat since you missed the important part :

"Since 440A has greater edge stability than 440C it will have greater edge retention in certain applications"

You're saying that 440A has better edge retention than 440C, right?

No, that is meaningless as I noted in the above. You might as well just say it is "right gooder" or something.

Do you have a link to exactly where Buck has published the 420hc vs BG42 data?

Ref :

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=421313

As a side note, the edge retention also INCREASED when they removed the pre-existing convex bevels and replaced them with flat bevels. This MEASURED DATA shows directly the hype constantly associated with convex bevels.

-Cliff

 

[Jerry Hossom]

Cliff, I think you contradict yourself just to avoid agreeing with me.

I will repeat since you missed the important part :

"Since 440A has greater edge stability than 440C it will have greater edge retention in certain applications"

You didn't exactly "repeat" what you said - you elaborated on it with that "in certain applications" part, but thank you nonetheless. You seem to have agreed with the whole point of this thread, which is constantly getting lost. The application here was for a large chopper in S30V. Large choppers need edge bevels easily in excess of 20 degrees.

As for that Buck data, it clearly shows BG-42 has better edge retention when the edge geometries are the same. That they clearly had a poorly designed and finished edge on the first test pieces hardly allows you to conclude anything about the steel. Actually there are too MANY variables contained in that discussion and no few assumptions that I find it hard to conclude anything. What they are showing is that yes, edge geomety does matter - at least the angle does in the data they presented. Assuming convex edges are bad based on that data however is a leap of faith I doubt many will want to make. Microbevels and back bevels are an approximation of the convex edge and many like those features for improved cutting and edge stability.

Yes, I've read Verhoeven, in fact I have a couple of his pieces stored on my PC for reference.

I guess one of the things that perplexes me is the belief expressed by the experts that high carbon steels are necessarily brittle and will exhibit brittle failure in uses they've not tested, using edge geometries they've not tried, with steels which may or may not be representative of what those steels are capable of being with optimized processing. At the same time they seem to ignore nonbrittle failure modes which are more common than brittle failure in steels that are not especially strong, such as low carbon, low alloy steels.

Futher, there is this one sticky little problem of people like several who have posted in this thread who have had excellent edge retention with S30V in direct contradiction of what the experts say should happen. Now, I guess we have to ask if they were just lucky and got an especially good batch of S30V or if the issue is really not the steel after all, but someting else, like how it is sharpened, or.... Then, there are the other examples of the thousands of people who have used knives in 440A, 420hc, etc who think those steels just suck and can't hold an edge no matter what. Perhaps they were just unlucky or the blades were poorly sharpened, or...

Then the problem gets even more sticky when it's the same people who have opposing experiences with the two categories of steel, who seem to generally believe S30V is better than 420hc, no matter what you say.

I think I'll continue to believe in the CPM Easter Bunny. He gives good knives.

 

[Kohai999]

thanks for staying with it!

I have had issues with Jerry in the past, publicly, for those that think this is kudos from an acolyte....

This discussion easily could have been left pages ago, but Jerry is sticking to his guns, and the Forums are better for it.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Michael Lovett]

Seems like the Bull never ends. I just read the Buck test data. The 420 did not surpass the bg-42. Far from it. You would have to take the test completely out of contest to find any advantage going to the 420 what so ever. Never have I seen some one who is supposedly well informed, get it so wrong. Aus-4-and 6, 440-a, 440-b are lousy steels. With 420 just as bad. 420hc is a little better.


I spent the weekend at a good little show. This subject came up while there. There were several well known makers there, a couple of metallurgist. A few that were lurkers here. We are all mystifies. Even the Aero space metallurgist. NONE agree with Cliff. Whats worse, they all wonder how he could get it so wrong if indeed he has the qualifications he claims. The Aero space fellow said that it was almost as if some one who should know better was trying to sell the Air Force a WW-I bi-plane. With all the data you could imagine, to prove that it was far superior to any modern high tech fighter available. What I am really wondering, is why am I bothering to respond. Good remarks Jerry! Mike

 

[sams]

I thought I would reinterate from my previous post. My experience with a variety of steels is that there are a handful, [previously mentioned] that do a good job. The heat treating, , shape of the blade [geometry ie convex, flat, etc], and the maker himself has the greatest influence of how well a knife will "cut". The intended function should be an assumption not requiring mentioning. I use a Chris Reeve s30v and love it! I use a Syderco vg 10 and love that too. I tried Buck, and other similar knife steels and did not like their cutting characteristics as much.

 

[the possum]

Yeah, for the third time now, I'm wondering aloud how all this talk of edge stability applies to big chopping blades. I'm far more concerned about gross damage, at least in regards to this thread. I do like very thin polished edges for fine cutting, but that's mostly on my smaller knives.

Cliff-
Some time ago you mentioned having a bunch of similar big chopping blades made from different steels, for a blind passaround/test. Has this idea gotten anywhere yet? The results of such a study could really help provide some solid info in a thread such as this. And from the interest generated here, I'm betting there would be lots of people willing to participate.

In regards to toughness vs. strength, I want both. I want high impact resistance (to deal with accidental impacts against hard stuff) at decently high hardness. Hopefully in the coming years my personal life will have improved enough to where I can get enough time in the shop to find some answers for myself.

 

[hardheart]

There always seems to be this blending of properties with each other, properties & performance, outcomes in use, tests, & outcomes in sharpening, etc.

Edge stability is a property, and seems to me more just an effect of carbide size and volume, a general trend that seems intuitive. As sharpening angles decrease & with push cutting as the application, a steel that is less likely to chip will outperform a steel that is more likely to chip. This does not make the 'low-end' steels better in a broad sense, but it does demonstrate what should be obvious, we have a variety of steels for a variety of applications. Now, if we have angles large enough that stability isn't an issue, on a chopping design that ostensibly won't be slicing, where does 420 sit compared to 420V? Is it a question of toughness, max attainable hardness, corrosion resistance, wear resistance?

From a purely academic standpoint, it can be shown that a particular steel is better suited to a particular task under particular criteria. Even in slicing, you have to do a certain number of cuts before one steel really pulls ahead of another in many cases. For real world application, well, what's the real world application. We cut rope, paper, cardboard, etc in tests. But, who sits at a bench and cuts rope, paper, cardboard, etc as a regular task? Sure, it comes with the job for many, but where are you doing it, what are the time constraints, how are the cuts being performed, how do you feel about sharpening time and frequency, blah blah blah. It's one thing to have a machine do the test cuts, or to do it on a scale with some jig set up. Absolute differences can be measured, but the variable of the individual user and task is lost. How much variance is there between steels, how much between knife designs, and how much between user/application?

Do any of the tests address what a user can/will spend, how much skill the user has, does the user have appropriate sharpening equipment/ability. Do any of our broad-based suggestions? I need a chopper. What are you chopping. I need thin slicer. What are you slicing. How are you chopping/slicing. Where are you chopping/slicing. How good are you at either. What is your threshold for the just noticeable difference.

One steel should always be better than another for specific applications. If they performed exactly the same in the same roles, the mills would just get rid of one in favor of the other. Seems any martensitic steel is good enough to make a knife. How much it costs, how hard it is to shape and process, how long it cuts, how hard it is to sharpen after it quits cutting, these are the questions of how the steel is 'good enough'. S30V wasn't the best knife steel 20 years ago. It won't be 20 years from now. Hell, it isn't the best right now because I didn't answer the question of 'best at what?' But it has a performance envelope, all the steels do. What people need to do is actually try to see where that lies, and if it matches their needs.

It probably does. For most steels and most uses, I'd say the same.

 

[Guyon]

Buck used to pound their knives through carriage bolts and the like, it is meaningless because the forces are not defined.
-Cliff

I find this line a little ironic, given the nature of so many of Cliff's "tests."

 

[enderwiggin]

Correct, no one is claiming it, several people have MEASURED it and material science supports it. Buck even has CATRA data which shows for example 420HC easily outcutting BG-42 when the 420HC blade has a more optimal profile. Since the finer grained steels are more stable at lower edge angles this should lead to an obvious conclusion in regards to wanting high cutting ability in knives and the ability to retain very sharp edges.

-Cliff

Doesn't howing one steel outcutting another when one has a more 'optimal' blade profile show nothing other than how important a good angle is to sharpening?

I just can't fathom why Crucible would formulate a steel specifically for knife making, when we already had the ultimate knifemaking steel: 420HC.

I wonder if maybe, just maybe, Buck could possibly having any bias toward 420HC.

 

[samhain73]

Stop. If Landes wants to use 12C27M in his knives, he's welcome to do so. If I tried to sell a knife in 12C27M, I'd be embarrassed.

Ok, I tried to not comment, but so what your saying Jerry, is the Mike Stewart should be embarrassed of himself and his company? Because that's one of the 2 steels he uses. It's too bad he won't come here, to discuss 12C27M, as it seems to be that he has a different opinion than yours. I know that can't be what your saying, but perhaps a change of words is in order?

 

[Jason B.]

I dont understand how can 420HC be beter than crucible 154,s30v,s60v,s90v that just dont sound right

 

[db]

It has greater edge stability yes. Edge holding without any qualifiers is meaningless as it isn't undefined. Edge stability is a material property. -Cliff

Edge stability is a Material property? By who and how is it quantified, defined, and measured? How is the term edge stability different from edge integrity, edge strength, edge holding, and non-edge dulling? BS isn’t always fact, but some facts are BS.

 

[Bastid]

I dont understand how can 420HC be beter than crucible 154,s30v,s60v,s90v that just dont sound right

In my experience it is not.

Personally, I will be glad to swap out any of my 420HC or 420J2 folders for one in those "hyped cpm steels" BG 42, D2, A2, 52100, 10V or 3V and I think that would be the case for anyone who has used the 420 series and any of the others mentioned for cutting things.

No need to take anything written as gospel, try them yourself and find out which one cuts the best and longest for what you use a knife for most of the time. I also know that academic studies and the conclusions of knife testers do not always reflect reality for me. All of us use our knives differently. A good steel for one person may not foot the bill for another person and a good steel for one knife maker may not foot the bill for another maker.

I am glad we have the choices.

 

[Jerry Hossom]

Ok, I tried to not comment, but so what your saying Jerry, is the Mike Stewart should be embarrassed of himself and his company? Because that's one of the 2 steels he uses. It's too bad he won't come here, to discuss 12C27M, as it seems to be that he has a different opinion than yours. I know that can't be what your saying, but perhaps a change of words is in order?

You know, dammit, this is only trying to stir up sh*t. I make hard use knives, and I really don't like the qualities of 12C27M for use in my knives. I also sell knives for a whole lot of money and I'm not going to use a steel appropriate to low cost kitchen cutlery in my $500+ knives. It doesn't matter what Mike Stewart does, wants to do, or what his reason is for using that steel. It has nothing to do with me and I really resent your trying to stir up trouble between Mike and me. I don't use A2 either. It's a good steel, just not what I want in my knives. Reasonable people can disagree. Maybe he needs to use a blankable steel and in that case it's probably a great choice. I don't have my blades blanked.

 

[Jason B.]

well for me S30V has been the best steel i have used next to D2 I still use some 420 blades but not that much

 

[Bastid]

I am with Jerry on this, he is talking about the steels he thinks is best for the knives he makes. The shots taken at him regarding Mike's and Tai's work are nothing but deflections and are illogical to say the least.

 

[Jerry Hossom]

Well, bad news travels fast. Before I could email him an apology for possibly overstating my case and/or oversimplifying a not very simple subject, Mike had PM'd me on another forum with this.

I do favor Fine Grained steels. I like them for their consistency. where they shine for me is that they will take a great edge--Hold it a more than a reasonable time in use and are tough.

I made the choice of these steels because I like them. I have learned how i like to Heat Trat and Temper them and I get the same results all the time.

My customers seem to like them too. They are tough and still easy to sharpen.

Jerry--as You know--I have now made a couple hundred knives in S30V and with your help--I get fantastic results for the Companies I make them for.

Once I understood how to use them--they were all wicked sharp and showed no sign of the Dredded Chipping that we see claimed all the time.

I will stick to my Fined Grained steels for Bark River but I have learned to appreciate the Super Steels too.

I prefer the extra toughness over the extra edge holding but that is my choice. We are in the fortunate group of makers that actually have folks use Our knives. The A-2 and the 12C27 are much easier to re-touch for my customers..

We are going into Folders in the next year and you will see us use the Super steels in those.

My A-2 is Crucible so I'm no stranger to them and their Steels.

They are a Great American Company and we are lucky to even have them give knives a second look.

Most folks don't know it but the average Auto maker uses more steel in One week than the entire American Knife industry combined uses in a year.

It's easy to attack a steel--a Model of Knife-- a maker or even a person on the internet.

Happens all the time.

I tried to read that thread but it was way too out there for me.

I'm too busy making knives. Just like You--I really don't care what other makers think of the Steels I use. They are not my customers.

My customers seem to like my choices--I sell every knife I can make and am usually months Backordered.

Jerry--You are my Friend and we have and will always get along. We don't have to agree on everything but we do have a respect that is unshakable.

Now if I could Just get you to stop all that Hollow Grinding.

Mike

NOW, to make something a little more clear. Mike uses convex edges on his knives and he doesn't sharpen them to ridiculously fine angles that the steel would be unable to support in relatively hard use or impacts. Bark River makes great knives. Each of my sons carries one of his Mini-Canadians everytime we go camping. They might even be 12C27M.

Edited to add: Mike gave me permission to post this here. He would have himself, but he just doesn't want to deal with the BS and contentiousness that would follow.

 

[Michael Lovett]

Buck did not pound their knives thru carriage bolts. While on a visit to the Randal shop, Mr. Buck witnessed the feat. A carriage bolt is dead soft. It serves the same purpose as the brass rod test. Buck later related the story to an Ad Exec. They decided to use the hammer driving the blade thru the bolt as an advertising gimmick for their knives. It appeared in ad copy and on the shield of their knives. In fact it does to this day. One of the Buck's told me years ago that it was a bitter sweet advertising deal. It caused folks to take notice, and think that a buck knife was a "Super Knife" made from some magic steel. unfortunately, it cost them a lot of money as well. Seems folks just loved to try and duplicate the trick with their Buck Knives. The Knife is gently tapped the bolt in the Randal test. Folks world try to hammer a blade thru a standard bolt with the expected results. Nice half moon chunks out of the blade. Or broken in half out right. It has been a long time. It may have been the ad. Ex. that saw Randal doing this and told Buck. Just can't remember which way it was. Getting old I guess. Mike

 

[Silverdagger]

Hey Cliff is Buck's 425 better at holding an edge than S30V too?

 

[hardheart]

did Randall do that with their 440B models, or just the O1?