s30v

[db]

presumption that Crucible made S30v to combat overseas competition, but my "speculation" is not completely out of the blue. 154cm was a remake to combat Ats-34 and Vg-10, but really was a so-so attempt,

Ummm, I think you have that a little backwards. 154 CM was around first and ATS was the copy.

Kohai if the 400 steels were really a better choice there are many custom makers that can heat treat it properly and can easily sell every knife they make no matter what the steel is. For example Kit Carson and there are many more. These makers use the steels they feel are the best for their knives no matter what the steel is. I've even seen a maker change from 420 to the new CPM 154 because of his own testing. Phill W.

 

[shaldag]

Shaldag, unfortunately these are not discussions; they are just very trying ordeals that are simply not justifiable endeavors unless there is some reason to believe what we are trying to communicate is being heard and is considered useful. Most of the time we are having to beat back accusations that knifemakers are inherently dishonest and trying to foist high priced garbage on a gullible public AND/OR we are simply stupid craftsmen who don't really understand the sciences we are tampering with. How many here would willingly enter a forum where there is a certainty of being insulted and maligned, and very serious doubt of being able to make any useful points or contributions (at least any that are ever acknowledged)?

Would you?

Jerry,
I think that in many cases they are discussion. However, the discussion continually are interrupted by one individual and his acolytes. The acolytes are not the problem, but the individual is the real problem. It is like trying to have a serious discussion in a room with a child screaming "come look at my toys".

There are few on these forums that take the attacks on makers seriously. Do you really think that folks here are not gonna buy your knives? Or that I'm gonna get rid of my S30V knives and replace them with ones made from 420?

The members of these forums do benefit by the participation of makers. The newer members especially benefit. Like I say, people eventually learn how to use the ignore feature for certain posters.

I personally enjoy this site, and understand why the owner and moderators have their tolerant attitudes. Tolerance is limited, however, and eventually the problem will solve itself. Either folks will learn to moderate their accusations, or they will be banned. In the meantime, it is not necessary for you ta naswer every idiotic comment. Nobody will think any the worse of you for shining him on.

 

[Nimravus Nut]

Ummm, I think you have that a little backwards. 154 CM was around first and ATS was the copy.

I know 154cm came about in the 70's but it died for a while due to impurities in later production and knifemakers stopped using it. It wasn't until Ats-34 was introduced in U.S. (in large numbers) that Crucible decided to take the market back from foreign steel makers.

Also, I have no experience with CPM154 so I can't comment on it.

 

[db]

You may be right. However, I seem to remember the reason makers went back to 154 CM was because the ATS quality dropped not from anything done at Crucible.

 

[zenheretic]

Jerry, now you really disappoint me.

You sound very defensive and threatened. Trying to shout down expert questions and comments with rhetoric and puerile logic may fool some, but not many. It will be to your advantage to remember that this forum is read worldwide by many who never post and whatever you say will influence a much wider audience.



Well, this professional metallurgist can't do other than agree with you. My mistake for joining in the first place.

FernetBranca

Amazing how your opinion can be formed in all of three days of posting here regarding an abberration that has carried on for 10 plus years.

Where do you work? Where can I purchase your knives?

 

[Jerry Hossom]

STeven, your aguments don't advance why Cliff would help in this or any similar dialog. There are certainly more things to learn about how steels work and are treated, but those mysteries above all else require open minds and freewheeling dialog. I'm immediately reminded of Cliff's treatment of the inventors of FFD2. That will not allow us to learn what the future holds.

Your point on something like Cryogenic quenching is well taken, but it wouldn't get discussed here unless someone wants to tolerate a rational discussion of retained austenite in high alloy steels - not that they are crap but that they have their problems just like all other steels - problems that need to be addressed but which are not necessarily fatal. Will it matter enough to make 440A act like 440C? No. It's a shame a company you apparently worked with produced a faulty product. That they falsely advertised the product is inexcuseable.

Nimravus Nut, I think you are using forum hearsay as facts. You are indeed wrong about 154CM/ATS-34. I believe your assessment of S30V is incorrect based on my and others' experiences with the steel. I've used and continue to use it in blades over 12" and almost nothing I make is used for "small cutting". JCaswell continues to point to some pretty compelling evidence that S30V is tough, but he's ignored in favor of he said/she said kind of arguments. You can certainly search for and find matches of S30V and chipping. You've added to that search with your own posts without having a fact to support your use of those terms.

FernetBranca, it's possible I was being defensive, but I tend to become that when I feel some are setting themselves above others in a discussion where anyone reading this thread and having ANY informed experience with S30V is more helpful than those who postulate what a better world we would have if the "learned" few were to decide among themselves what is right then inform the unwashed masses so they could spend their money accordingly. Maybe it's just the 30 years I spent working in the sciences that have sensitized me to technically worded BS in the absense of common sense, but I do tend to react negatively to it. As for metallurgists, some are among my best friends. In fact I spent time with a couple of them along with a couple hundred other knifemakers just this past weekend. We had some very productive, enlightening and useful chats on steel and edges in high impact cutting. Very much on topic here, but you'll never see what I heard written here.

Shaldag, I don't know if the people who read this take the takes on knifemakers seriously or not. I can assure you that the knifemakers who are attacked take those attacks seriously and find them hard to take. In the several years I've visited this forum, moderation is not an attribute many would apply to Cliff and I'm sure his unpleasantness will be felt here for many years to come.

 

[Jerry Hossom]

154CM was made in the 1950's as a ball bearing steel. ATS-34 was a Japanese copy sponsored by Bob Loveless many years later (maybe the '70's). Nimravus Nut, people who read what you write have no way of know you have not researched your facts and that they are in fact incorrect.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Jerry, another thing you mentioned is that Paul does your heat treating. We all know Paul is a master at his realm and not many people complains about the knives that he treated. But there are a number of manufacturers like Benchmade and Spyderco who doesn't use Paul, and it's their knives that most people complain about.

This is not only not true but unfounded to note that only Buck has competent heat treaters. Has ANYONE ever actually produced any FACTS that Paul Bos is a superior heat treater to the others used in the industry.

Or any forum frequented by professional knifemakers.

Yes, like SwordForums, no professionals there.

No, 420HC and 440A don't get a bad rap. They are simply inferior steels.

Again, no FACTS, they have superior edge stability, corrosion resistance, toughness, etc. .

Where do these "facts" come from?

Measurements.

Well, this professional metallurgist can't do other than agree with you. My mistake for joining in the first place.

That is why the responces are given of course.

-Cliff

 

[Nimravus Nut]

You may be right. However, I seem to remember the reason makers went back to 154 CM was because the ATS quality dropped not from anything done at Crucible.

Around 2001 when Benchmade switched their primary steel from ATS to 154 was pure hype. I can say this is because I still have two of the pre-2001 production Nims in ATS-34 and three in 154cm and there is absolutely no difference in performace between them. In Benchmade's website it did state that the company wants to keep "everything American"... so they switched not because of perfomance but for "other" reasons.

 

[Kohai999]

STeven, your aguments don't advance why Cliff would help in this or any similar dialog. There are certainly more things to learn about how steels work and are treated, but those mysteries above all else require open minds and freewheeling dialog. I'm immediately reminded of Cliff's treatment of the inventors of FFD2. That will not allow us to learn what the future holds.

Your point on something like Cryogenic quenching is well taken, but it wouldn't get discussed here unless someone wants to tolerate a rational discussion of retained austenite in high alloy steels - not that they are crap but that they have their problems just like all other steels - problems that need to be addressed but which are not necessarily fatal. Will it matter enough to make 440A act like 440C? No. It's a shame a company you apparently worked with produced a faulty product. That they falsely advertised the product is inexcuseable.

1. I don't necessarily think that Cliff often helps in open dialog. I think that he helps in asking good questions that make some of us research the question, so we can learn more. He loves the attention, but he is not always wrong, even though I wish that he was, the same way that I wish that Sal would stop encouraging Cliff, but he won't, probably until Cliff stomps on his dick...which he will.

It is up to EACH of us to keep an open mind. If Cliff says "Why do you like S30V?", that is a good question....If he says "why are you so ignorant, Jerry?", not a good question, but you have to look at the source...Cliff often makes himself easy to ignore, even when he is being a pesky smartbutt.

2. The cutlery company I mentioned is not one that I worked for.....they did not purposefully "lie", they got a bad heat treat batch, Rockwelled it, and had what had not shipped,re-heat treated.....Ford has had a recall on tires, electronics modules and airbags in the last two years if I recall(ha ha), stuff happens, what can I say.....My point was that cutlery manufacturers drop the ball sometimes, even on heat treats.

3. I think the FFD2 thread did a LOT more good than bad, because it exposed how Cliff cuts and runs when he is intellectually outpowered, and it showed his MO when he gets tough questions thrown back at him. AND, it showed a new group of interested individuals how cool Wayne Goddard can be.

There will always be a self-appointed master of useless ephemera and pontificator of pustiness on public forums, if not Cliff, than someone else.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[db]

Around 2001 when Benchmade switched their primary steel from ATS to 154 was pure hype. I can say this is because I still have two of the pre-2001 production Nims in ATS-34 and three in 154cm and there is absolutely no difference in performace between them. In Benchmade's website it did state that the company wants to keep "everything American"... so they switched not because of perfomance but for "other" reasons.

I don't know why Benchmade switched. I heard from a few knife makers not any company that ATS quality had dropped and they switched to 154 and had fewer problems like voids in the steel. Makers hate grinding a blade and finding a void in the steel and haveing to trash the blade and start over. I'm only assumeing the performance of ATS and 154 are and were the same with the same heat treat. I have no info that the performance is any different between the two. So yeah maybe Benchmade found simular problems and not switched just for pure hype.

 

[hardheart]

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=237901

 

[Michael Lovett]

Thanks for the in-site Jerry as to why not many makers will get involved here. I had a talk about this very thing with Kit over a year ago.



N Nut, It wasn't a quality question between Ats and 154 as far as performance goes. But rather imperfections causing problems giving the high finish the Loveless shop and many others at the time preferred. Mine included. The Mil spec contract ended, and then Colt Crucible stopped the vacum smelt. It was and still is a great steel. But remember, there all that many custom makers at the time. Nothing like today. Colt wasn't trying to build a business supplying Knife makers. This is Bob and Jim went to Japan to try and convince the steel maker there to make the Ats for us all. They did, and the rest is history. Crucible is no longer owned by Colt. And they actively wanting to supply the Knife Maker. A fine job they are doing too! We owe them a lot.


I know nothing about it being a bearing steel. It may very well be. What I do know is that it is a high performance jet turbine steel. There were several bad crashes in the us due to engine ingestion. Read flocks of birds. They wanted the stability of the current blade material. And it's high corrosion resistance. High abrasion resistance was a high priority as well. A lot of grit can be ingested on a run-way. But they needed these properties to be available at the operating temp of the intake fan blades of modern jet engines. This is why 154 was developed. A poster stated earlier, very incorrectly that 440-c was tougher. And had better edge holding. Not so. You see. 154-cm is modified 440-c. The modifications increased hot hardness to insure stability at high rpm, and high heat. The same modifications also increased toughness and wear resistance. The new CPM version has tackled the surface impurity problems for high polish. A knife makers dream!


S30v is a fine steel in it's own right. The jury is still out in a few areas. Of coarse it will not take a high degree of finish. Just as well I guess, as a high degree of finish is quickly becoming a lost art.



As to Cliff. Jerry you are dead on. I enjoy steel discussions. But unfortunately, any time I see anything on steel performance, I dread taking a look at it here on the forms. No matter how well intentioned, or intelligently discussed, the minute Stamp sees it, it turns to crap all most instantly. It is really getting to be old hat. And very boring. How in the world can some one have such Strong opinions about the properties of steel without having the least bit of a clue as to how knives are used, and what is really required of them. Sad! What I am seeing from his is little more than old fashion Flem-flam
Sounds good to the UN-knowing, but blatantly pathetic to any professional cutler.

 

[Broos]

Can anyone explain how the characteristics that determine how strongly a carbide is held in place are NOT some of the same characteristics that determine wear resistance? I would think they are related (but I'm too tired to research it right now). And I find it difficult to believe that a very wear resistant steel does not get some advantage in edge retention testing as a result of these characteristics. Seems like common sense to me, but despite that I would not make the leap to say that Phil Wilson's testing showing better edge retention over 12C27 "proves" this "fact".

To me it seems that materials properties are assumed by a few of the theoretical speculators here as things that are well understood and nailed down, but wear resistance and toughness are not. Charpy values are interpreted by some as a measure of toughness used in engineering a design, and are used by others only to determine the transition temperature between brittle and ductile behavior of the test material. The real value of the charpy test and the resulting toughness measure of energy absorbed are not universally accepted. Regardless, how exactly the charpy measure of toughness influences knife performance is speculative without tests to confirm it. I'd also be willing to bet that many knife failures that were blamed on the steel not being tough enough were caused by factors other than toughness - voids or cracks/stress risers particularly. That is why I would rather trust the knifemakers own testing and experience that their knife was tough enough for the stated purpose, anyway.

If we waited for theoretical knowledge to catch up with our real world working machines based on empirical science and the age old method of trial and error, we'd still be riding horses or jumping off the bridge with feathers glued to our arms trying to fly.

This was mentioned by Jerry earlier in the thread, but bares repeating - to take a single material property and make assumptions on how it affects knife performance from test results or observations without keeping in mind the whole picture is an inherently flawed approach, and will lead to different assumptions that do not jive together, which has been illustrated in this thread IMO (one instance of it was noted by db previously).

 

[Jerry Hossom]

Has anyone produced facts about Paul Bos? Only a couple hundred of the some of the best knifemakers in the world. I supposed you are now going to attack an icon of our industry out of frustration with your own limitations? Besides his work with knives, Paul's company also did much of the heat treating for the defense and space industry in Southern California. And I know for a fact that he consulted with Crucible to optimize the heat treating schedule for S30V. Now, who else in the industry did you have in mind?

Swordforums is an exception, Cliff. But having spent time there in the past, before you arrived, several of the leading contributors stopped participating when you began posting, inluding a steel metallurgist who will not post there or here in a thread in which you participate. He is visiting this thread regularly.

Nimravus Nut, ATS-34 and 154CM are chemically the same steel. They differ only in method of manufacture, which more recently results in 154CM having somewhat less grain orientation. Both have had periods of shaky manufacture. Crucible managed to improve theirs. As noted, the problems were cosmetic. I stand corrected on 154CM's reason for being. It was indeed as a rotor/fan blade steel.

On the edge stability issue, it is axiomatic that if you reduce the amount of carbon in steel you will have fewer and smaller carbides. If you want perfect edge stability where no carbides will be dislodged under any circumstances, simply reduce the carbon to virtually zero. Carbides are what gives the steel wear resistance and strength - fundamental requirements of a knife edge. Those are the attributes which are lacking in 440A and 440hc.

Try this. Take knives out of this discussion. Virtually all high alloy steels were developed for things other than knives. Why did industry feel the need for high carbon, high alloy steels? Are they using these steels? And are they as stupid as knifemakers in selecting steels based solely on hype and BS? Does an industrial process engineer really care what name is on the steel that is fabricating his products? Why would he use CPM-10V if 5160 would do just as well (or as Cliff would have it, better)?

 

[Blop]

It is not true, that simply reducing the carbon content has the influence on the amount and size of carbides. Landes has shown pics of two pieces of steel. Same mixture but one was intended as a ball bearing grade, the other was a tool steel. What a difference.

440C, for example can be found in german declaration as 1.4125 (a stainlaes tool steel) and under a different number (same mixture) as a ball bearing grade. Guees, which one would make the better edge? Production and heat treatment has a influence on the amount and size of carbides.

The fact, that some steel grades are used in the industry doesn´t has to proof it´s edge quality. I would strongly believe, that the edge angles, used in the industry, maybe to cut steel, are much larger, than that, we are talking about.

 

[hardheart]

what is high carbon steel, I've seen 0.5 and 0.8% all used to delineate. Maybe 0.8, because of the eutectoid point?

 

[Jerry Hossom]

Blop, I"m not sure I'm understanding you. Are you saying that two steels having the same formula produce different results? Could you show an example?

That BTW is not the case with ATS-34 and 154CM. There are some differences due to rolled and cross-rolled sheet, but those differences are minor. The performance is virtually identical.

Stamping dies are a good example of cutting tools that need stable and wear resistant edges. Some are large, some not. Industrial shears for cutting lots of different materials are other examples. Is the edge bevel different than with the knives we use? Yes, but the end requirement is the same, and finer edges need more strength not less to tolerate hard impacts.

I'm not really arguing with Landes' experimental results here. My difference is with some of the conclusions drawn, esecially Cliff's conclusions.

 

[the possum]

On the edge stability issue, it is axiomatic that if you reduce the amount of carbon in steel you will have fewer and smaller carbides. If you want perfect edge stability where no carbides will be dislodged under any circumstances, simply reduce the carbon to virtually zero. Carbides are what gives the steel wear resistance and strength - fundamental requirements of a knife edge.

???

This does not agree with my understanding of how things work. If I am wrong, I would like to be corrected, but currently I don't believe I'm wrong. How do carbides give the steel strength? That should be more a function of the matrix, not the carbides. The fine carbides in O-1 make it less strong than a big carbide steel like D-2? Carbide fraction & volume tells you more about strength than a Rockwell test? So S30V with its bigger carbides should still be stronger (i.e., more resistant to plastic deformation) even when tempered down to 55 Rc, than 1095 is at 64 Rc? This does not follow.

 

[JCaswell]

Has anyone produced facts about Paul Bos? Only a couple hundred of the some of the best knifemakers in the world.....

I have precisely one experience with Mr. Bos, and it will not be my last.

I called Paul after another professional, industrial heat-treat company that "specializes" in precision HT (retaining flatness, etc) and is not unfamiliar with knives, managed to turn more than 300 Damasteel blades into potato chips. They were unable to maintain flatness despite numerous attempts. In addition, they claimed the warped blades were 59 Rc, but we tested them out at 56-57 Rc. They were aware I had to send them to Bos to fix the problems, but they still felt inclined to charge me for their efforts.

Paul straightened and hardened them to 61 Rc. (He does 100% hardness testing) and didn't charge me for the extra annealing required to straighten out the other guys' efforts.

:thumbup: :thumbup: Paul Bos is highly capable, knows knives and is a class act to top it off!:thumbup: :thumbup: