s30v

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From what I've seen on Crucible's pages, I think M4 is also tougher than M2, but that doesn't say much either way for S30V, it's a separate steel.

I think the general trends of cutting longevity amongst steel measured by CATRA and by hand should be similar, but I'd guess an edge after X number of cuts on a machine wouldn't match perfectly with X number of cuts by hand if viewed microscopically. Has anyone done REST testing in conjunction with hand slicing of rope?

The Strider is pretty overbuilt, something like Aldo & Mace's 1084 should do better if properly HT'd, Noss' testing doesn't check wear resistance.
 
hardheart said:
The Strider is pretty overbuilt ... Noss' testing doesn't check wear resistance.
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The Strider has a thick spine and point, but the edge isn't overly thick, as with some knives in that genre.

The point is that the word "Brittle" is being used as the primary adjective for S30V. ---The main charge is not that it lacks wear resistance, but that it chips out.

Here is a piece of visual evidence that speaks to that assessment. If you can watch Noss' knife-torture hooliganism on the Strider and say ... "Brittle," ... well ... I'm not sure further discussion on the subject can be productive.
 
I mentioned wear resistance because I think the S30V should do much better than 1084 in that regard. If Noss did do lots of slicng, the 1084 wouldn't have an advantage over S30V in an identical knife. Since he does lots of smacking around of hard stuff and stabbing, I figure 1084 would be better suited for that. 1084 also would have it easier since he doesn't soak the knives in brine or anything, corrosion resistance being another advantage S30V has over it.
 
I've made a lot of knives in 1084. It's one of my favorites, but I honestly don't see it holding up better in that Noss "test" if hardened to hold an edge.

Again, it's the assertion that S30V is "brittle" that raises my skepticism. That charge has been made several times in this thread, and for evidence all I've seen is theoretical analysis of datasheets and relatively vague written descriptions of anecdotal failures. At least with Noss, the 'undefined' forces are on film so you can make some level of judgement. I don't see his 'work' supporting the 'brittle' thing.

I have no first-hand experience with S30V yet, but judging from the way folks here talk, It's fragile as glass and has very little else going for it. I'm just skeptical that its so fragile it's unsuitable for any real duty--especially after watching the Noss show.
 
I got a couple shots of the knives I cut nails with. They aren't great, but might be enough to scare others off from doing such a thing :p

In between the missing chunks in the JYD is an area of damage where I cut a nail without completely screwing up. The first successful cut was made in a spot later lost in the blowout closer to the handle. The CPM154 damage is pretty easy to see in the one shot, nothing gargantuan.




 
Cliff Stamp said:
I was not always like this, ironically, what you described is exactly why this forum was formed as Knifeforums was like that at the time.





-Cliff
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Yes, you were always like this.

BTW.... stamp neglects to mention that he isn't welcome at that other forum.
 
Ebbtide said:
Yes, you were always like this.

BTW.... stamp neglects to mention that he isn't welcome at that other forum.
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Or any forum frequented by professional knifemakers.

If CPM-M4 just can't be tough, and some of the tasks of the Professional Cutting Competitions demand toughness, and ALL of the tasks demand the ability to efficiently cut materials ranging from plastic to rope to cardboard to softwood to hardwood to laminates, AND the prizes (real money) are awarded to those who do these cuts successfully in the least time with NO damage to the edge, why aren't more of these people (not all are knifemakers) demanding knives in 12C27M?

Shaldag, unfortunately these are not discussions; they are just very trying ordeals that are simply not justifiable endeavors unless there is some reason to believe what we are trying to communicate is being heard and is considered useful. Most of the time we are having to beat back accusations that knifemakers are inherently dishonest and trying to foist high priced garbage on a gullible public AND/OR we are simply stupid craftsmen who don't really understand the sciences we are tampering with. How many here would willingly enter a forum where there is a certainty of being insulted and maligned, and very serious doubt of being able to make any useful points or contributions (at least any that are ever acknowledged)?

Would you?
 
In my opinion there is absolutely no doubt that the dailogue here is limited to those who are willing to deal with cliff. The FFD2 threads were a great example of what one has to deal with to wade through the BS. When two mechanical engineering professors and Wayne Goddard's every point is disputed and they are accused of intentionally biasing tests, and one guy's test results on messerforums (or whatever) are used over and over again as a factual reference to 12C27's superiority over S30V, then that tends to indicate to me that something is back asswards.
 
Broos said:
In my opinion there is absolutely no doubt that the dailogue here is limited to those who are willing to deal with cliff. The FFD2 threads were a great example of what one has to deal with to wade through the BS. When two mechanical engineering professors and Wayne Goddard's every point is disputed and they are accused of intentionally biasing tests, and one guy's test results on messerforums (or whatever) are used over and over again as a factual reference to 12C27's superiority over S30V, then that tends to indicate to me that something is back asswards.
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Yeah, the circular argument in this otherwise informative thread is tiresome but unfortunately it appears to be common in quite a few threads I've been reading here. What seems odd to me is that a couple of metallurgists opinion on 420HC's supposed superiority somehow outweighs the many opinions of people who think its a low grade steel that doesn't step close to newer and better steels for functional real-world use.
 
Torm said:
What seems odd to me is that a couple of metallurgists opinion on 420HC's supposed superiority somehow outweighs the many opinions of people who think its a low grade steel that doesn't step close to newer and better steels for functional real-world use.
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Ok, now this is somewhere, that Cliff actually shines...(I can't frikkin believe that I wrote that...):eek:

From what I have read, it is the heat treat of 420 that has been lacking, and that makes sense, because MOST manufacturers do not put the money and time into heat treat to optimize the steel(most any steel, not just 420). They get it "good enough", and it is, for many applications, good enough.

The custom makers will not use what is thought of as an "inferior" steel, because to do so would be making a hard job that much harder. Heck, some makers have to "sell" 440C, not because there is anything wrong with it, per se, just because it is "old". Same thing with ATS-34.

So 420HC/440A get a bad rap.

If Cliff could just stick to real, uncontroversial proven facts, and stop calling people stupid, and liars, THEN we might all be able to have a discussion.

But there is no promise of that anytime soon.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
No, 420HC and 440A don't get a bad rap. They are simply inferior steels. Where does the idea that bad heat treating is acceptable to anyone in the knife industry originate? That might be true in China. I can't say, but it's not a limitation of US production. It is true that you can probably only achieve a certain quench rate if the batch volume is very high, but that is a modest issue that would be quickly dealt with if the steel really had more to offer.

Where do these "facts" come from?

If a steel's name were the only problem, it would be easy enough to simply change/add a minor component, claim some magic heat treating formula, and adopt a new name to have a whole new proprietary opportunity. I can promise you that if it were possible to take a blankable steel like 440A and with simple heat treating or other minor modifications make it perform even as good as 440C, companies would have invented 445XL Super Stainless long ago. That's almost the holy grail of production stainless steel.

STeven, I think you just invented your own "real, uncontroversial proven facts" that are more than a little controversial and maybe not so factual in this instance.
 
Jerry Hossom said:
No, 420HC and 440A don't get a bad rap. They are simply inferior steels. Where does the idea that bad heat treating is acceptable to anyone in the knife industry originate? .... I can't say, but it's not a limitation of US production.

Where do these "facts" come from?

If a steel's name were the only problem, it would be easy enough to simply change/add a minor component, claim some magic heat treating formula, and adopt a new name to have a whole new proprietary opportunity.

STeven, I think you just invented your own "real, uncontroversial proven facts" that are more than a little controversial and maybe not so factual in this instance.
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Jerry,

I don't want to fight with you right now, and ESPECIALLY over a subject like Cliff.

1. Did not cryogenic tempering change the material qualities of many cutlery steels? How long has this process been used? How will FFD2 change what we know of D2 as a blade material?

2. I have worked at 2(two) knife manufacturing companies, GT Knives, and Buck Knives....I have gotten many of my facts from those in the industry. I first-hand, personally know of one instance where a company was promoting a specific knife as a higher rockwell than it actually was, and this was not the only time. That was due to a heat treat that was "not" good enough in this case.

3. Fowler's work with 52100 has proven as well as anything that we don't know everything about steel, and probably will not. I refer in this case to his low temperature forging, which has been supported in conversations with Ed Schempp and Kevin Cashen.

I didn't postulate that either steels are good...I intimated that they "may" be good. I don't know enough about them to say. I am on your side in this fight, and have supported you throughout the thread.....but....when Cliff may be right, then he may be right.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
JCaswell said:
I have no first-hand experience with S30V yet, but judging from the way folks here talk, It's fragile as glass and has very little else going for it. I'm just skeptical that its so fragile it's unsuitable for any real duty--especially after watching the Noss show.
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Well.. S30v is not fragile like glass by any means, but it is expensive and its high wear resistance makes it very hard to profile.. thus making it expensive overall, while it offers no real advantage in toughness compared to current stainless, but quite a few posts responds well to its edge holding capability.
 
Jerry Hossom said:
Again, you've not provided an argument that the steel has failed. You can't blame the material if it wasn't used properly. Most who've posted in this thread like it. Was their steel different from other S30V? No, it was the same steel, same formula. The steel's fine; the BS is what really... :barf:

Nut, I think you really need to clarify the facts on which you try to base your arguments.
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Jerry, I'm not a knifemaker nor one that does extensive tests like noss or Cliff, but I am a user. I have never stated that S30v "FAILED" on any of my posts, but I have stated that it's not as "TOUGH" as Crucible "claimed" to be. I don't have inside facts on how the steel was produced. It was my presumption that Crucible made S30v to combat overseas competition, but my "speculation" is not completely out of the blue. 154cm was a remake to combat Ats-34 and Vg-10, but really was a so-so attempt, most forum members still prefer VG-10 over 154cm. Myself personally prefers 440c and Vg-10 and consider them to be a class over 154cm (440c tougher, VG-10 sharper and tougher). But I have to clarify that S30v was pure speculation and it's just one person's opinion.

Jerry, lets put all other "facts" aside. I only have one question to ask: Do you agree with the fact that most members in this forum still prefer old standbys (carbon or stainless) over the new S30v? By the way, I based all my "facts" from the responses posted in this forum.

One last thing, I just want to be consistent with my argument and I'm saying this again: There are other stainless that is more "suitable" for "choppers" that cost way less and performs just as well for large choppers.

The first post was questioning "why wasn't S30v more widely used as large choppers". I'm not putting S30v down by any means as along as it's used for "small cutting" purposes only.
 
zenheretic said:
I don't pay attention to Benchmade, but am quite a fan of Spyderco, watching there subforum here and their homesite extensively for roughly two years.

I'd be surprised if there were 5 complaints chipping.

If one was to read this thread with no salt to partake, one might conclude that S30V crumbles before our very eyes.
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Search keywords "S30v chip", "S30v chipping", "S30v vs VG-10", you'll get a lot more results and complaints.
 
Jerry Hossom said:
FernetBranca will likely reduce participation even further with his contributions for the intellectually arrogant end of the gene pool. Not bad for a guy who only has 9 posts.
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Jerry, now you really disappoint me.

You sound very defensive and threatened. Trying to shout down expert questions and comments with rhetoric and puerile logic may fool some, but not many. It will be to your advantage to remember that this forum is read worldwide by many who never post and whatever you say will influence a much wider audience.

Of course all high Carbide steels chip.
Oh yeah, one other group of people who seldom if ever post here are real metallurgists. Several read here as well, but don't participate. ......The price of offering inputs is too high for most.
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Well, this professional metallurgist can't do other than agree with you. My mistake for joining in the first place.

FernetBranca
 
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