Sad day for me a ZT lover...

The ZT 0620 uses a heavier blade stock that the Grip, but it is more pointy point (side profile, not top down along the spine) than the Grip tanto, making it excellent for fine detail cutting, but poor for prying.

If the ZT has the Elmax blade, it will be very tough. Elmax is probably the toughest stainless steel going. It's tougher than 154CM, although heat treat will have to be factored in.

Batoning with a folder requires precise technique. And wood is funny. Grains shift and turn. Hidden knots or buried branch fragments can cause havoc. I've chopped branches with a folder without problems, but then I hit a branch with twisted grain, and the edge rolls or chips. Without knowing the technique you used or the hidden factor in the particular wood, it's hard to blame ZT. Although, you can be dang proud of that Grip.
 
I wouldn't be too disappointed the folder held up well IMHO given the situation.

As far as the tip goes the most tips I've snapped off have been a Tanto , it happens.

As far as the batoning and the lock failing, never baton with a locked folder as someone else said . In a true emergency situation like OP was trying to replicate you wouldn't want to risk your knife if you haft to baton with a folder never lock it .

As far as the tip correct me if I'm wrong but even in the user guide it says don't do it.

I have a few zts, I've owned most of the line and I've always been pleased with them. I don't expect my folder to take the place of a fixed blade or hatchet either . Op I'm not ripping you and my aplogies for the same old don't do this with a folder etc.

Given the circumstances though I'd be satisfied with how the knife worked .

I've beat on Elmax pretty good and it doesn't seem brittle to me .
 
From my understanding, Elmax is relatively tough for a stainless if not run at a high RC, but it is still stainless so not something I would use to baton. And the Axis lock is much stronger than a framelock so no surprise there.
 
Ruggdogg87 said:
And S35 for the lower cost steel
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And generally there probably isn't an appreciable price difference in Elmax and S35VN for a company buying as much as ZT is.

More likely, it was the issue of availability, and the fact that they already moved over to CTS-204P for their other knives, so they likely signed a purchase deal for S35VN at the same, time, so they could get a better price on both, and only have to deal with one manufacturer at a time with their steel purchases. It also probably was cheaper in the sense that they no longer have to pay an import tax on their steel. I would not say the steel was any cheaper, but the cost of transportation is probably lower on S35VN.

That being said, there is not enough of a difference between S35VN and Elmax the way ZT treats both that most people are likely to ever know the difference. Sure, they each have some minor advantages over one another, but not enough that it actually matters to most users over the life of the knife.
 
Charr said:
And generally there probably isn't an appreciable price difference in Elmax and S35VN for a company buying as much as ZT is.

More likely, it was the issue of availability, and the fact that they already moved over to CTS-204P for their other knives, so they likely signed a purchase deal for S35VN at the same, time, so they could get a better price on both, and only have to deal with one manufacturer at a time with their steel purchases. It also probably was cheaper in the sense that they no longer have to pay an import tax on their steel. I would not say the steel was any cheaper, but the cost of transportation is probably lower on S35VN.

That being said, there is not enough of a difference between S35VN and Elmax the way ZT treats both that most people are likely to ever know the difference. Sure, they each have some minor advantages over one another, but not enough that it actually matters to most users over the life of the knife.
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That is more what I was thinking. I actually prefer S35 but have no reason to do so other than the name and who makes it (if it's Crucible). Thank you for the clarification.
 
WadeWilson said:
Excellent post, Charr.
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Much appreciated :D

Ruggdogg87 said:
That more what I was thinking. Thank you for the clarification.
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That's still speculation, though. I could also be wrong, though I know that on a small-scale basis the main difference in cost between Elmax and S35Vn does tend to be sourcing it and the heat treat process. The heat treat of Elmax is supposed to be a little harder to do than S35VN from what I have heard from several custom makers.

Done by a production company, I don't know what the difference is, and I know that they have very little performance differences, but with a custom heat treat and edge geometry, I have seen both steels perform exponentially better than what you would expect from a production company, so I can only think that the additional expenses would be the difference and not really the performance/base cost of the steels.
 
"Not only that, but BM generally makes their knives (it seems) with the idea that they have no idea what type of people will use them, so they make the geometry of their blades thicker in order to keep people from being able to break them easily."

What the what, what?
 
Interesting posts, and I was very proud of my Griptilian. I know I should of done many things better, and in a real situation I wouldn't of locked the knife etc. So, get off that horse for a second haha. My point was I hoped for the price it would preform similar in that situation to the Griptilian. That was my only point really, never claimed it was smart.
 
You should be proud of the Griptilian, they are really good no nonsense tough knives. The ZT knife is a fine knife as well, just not intended for such things despite the marketing. Honestly neither knife is intended for what you did, but BM's with the AXIS lock and tougher steel will endure abuse better.
 
crom said:
"Not only that, but BM generally makes their knives (it seems) with the idea that they have no idea what type of people will use them, so they make the geometry of their blades thicker in order to keep people from being able to break them easily."

What the what, what?
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What I meant by that is the barrier of purchase (mainly price and availability) on a Griptilian is much lower than it is on a 0620, so they seem to make their blades to be able to accommodate a much wider group of people, who might use their blades in a way that might not be...acceptable to most of us more particular knife users and enthusiasts.
They generally have much thicker edge geometry than they need, and while that makes them pretty tough to break, it also makes them not the best slicers. They tend to keep their 154CM a little softer than they need to, so that it is also a bit tougher, though it needs to be sharpened a little more often.

That's really all I was trying to say, just in fewer words.

Gideons said:
Interesting posts, and I was very proud of my Griptilian. I know I should of done many things better, and in a real situation I wouldn't of locked the knife etc. So, get off that horse for a second haha. My point was I hoped for the price it would preform similar in that situation to the Griptilian. That was my only point really, never claimed it was smart.
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And in that respect I do get what you're saying.

It really seems like that was more caused by the nature of the knives in question, though. If you compared both in a cutting competition, the ZT would probably beat the hell out of the Grip. The Grip just has some features that kind of made it better for those particular tests.
That's the weird thing about knives. You can have two knives that seem very similar on the surface, but one can be much batter at some things while the other will win in other tasks. A lot of that is in the details.

In terms of materials, production, F&F, and overall cutting performance, the ZT almost certainly outclasses the BM.
 
Prying with a thin tip is not a great idea.
Batonning wood as wide as the length of the blade is always a bad idea, even with a fixed blade.
 
I don't see any surprises about how the knives performed. No matter how super the steel is, if the laws of physics are against it, the knife will break. This is not a problem with Elmax or ZT, any knife with such a profile would've broken during prying.
 
Gideons said:
So... When people say Elmax is a super steel what does that mean exactly? Like, I am no steel expert, but how is 154CM better at batoning? Would S30V be better than Elmax? What about D2? Also, the tip of the knife didn't break from batoning lol. Also, this isn't a fantasy situation, it would more be like a hellish situation.
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Gideons...

Sorry for your experience here, but it is the most likely outcome from the "tests" you did with your 620. There's an old thread somewhere on BF where a 620 tip snapped much like yours from a drop, and not a very high one. That fella was surprised, too. Scurvy's post #2 makes a good point. If you are ever forced to baton with a folder, do it with the lock DIS-engaged. That prevents the shock of the impacts from being transmitted to the lock surfaces and mechanisms. Liner & frame locks seem to be particularly sensitive to shocks.

First... the term "super steel" doesn't really mean anything objective and specific unless it's accompanied with specs and graphs showing that steel's performance characteristics. It's more of a marketing / owner pride kind of term. Generally speaking, it refers to newer powder steels that are oriented somewhat more toward edge-holding than toughness. "Toughness", as I understand it, refers to a steel's ability to absorb shocks and possibly distort some (roll) without breaking (chipping). Older steels like 154CM were a bit more balanced between toughness and edge holding than the newer steels. The steels used in modern folders are oriented a bit more toward edge holding. That's what many people want in their folders. They aren't normally going to use them in rougher outdoor settings so edge holding as a steel characteristic is more desirable than steel known for high toughness. There are still a few knuckle-draggers like me around (I like Emerson and Benchmade because of their use of 154CM) that prefer tougher steels that don't hold an edge as long but are easy to resharpen. But we're definitely in the minority.

Second... it's possible that both D2 and S30V would have given you similar results to the Elmax in your ZT. Steels like A2, 1095, or 3V would have taken the prying and batoning much better, but those aren't normally folder steels.

Third... if this had been a real situation where prying and batoning with your ZT were necessary for your survival, that 620 would have kept you alive. You lost the tip and the lock doesn't work like it should. But the knife still has a pretty stout blade and it can still be used if you really are struggling to survive. So cut the knife a little slack here. It didn't actually fail you. It took some damage and it'll probably never be like it was before this, but if that's all you have and you're up against it, it could still be useful to you.
 
stabman said:
Prying with a thin tip is not a great idea.
Batonning wood as wide as the length of the blade is always a bad idea, even with a fixed blade.
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Thanks for adding the part about batoning. I forgot to mention that one myself...somewhere in the massive mess of information I spewed out onto this thread...:D:D
 
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