Safety of non-locking folders like Boy Scout & SAK

[AreBeeBee]

I haven't ignored those issues and I've replied to them if you cared to read back. The part of your post I bolded is also about as true as any of your premises and assumptions. You are projecting your mind to "any adult" as well.

Actually, the behavioral change happens universally. It's not an on/off switch; people just begin to take a few more risks, then a few more. They run more yellow lights, even a few red ones. They change lanes without really looking, talk on cell phones, engage the cruise control in medium traffic; in non-auto activities, they indulge in more show-off activities. It's a human universal, and a very interesting and important human psychological problem. (Seriously.)

Backsprings: This is Pinnah's point, and I'm agree wholeheartedly with it. We're not speaking about GEC "alligator" backsprings, but just the normal spring tension that adults don't even think about anymore and forget is a problem for most kids (me included, when I think back).

Kids indeed can learn on any tool, but think that starting with one that has no backstop (= locking mechanism) is a better way to in culcate a small-to-medium sense of fear at a knife's capabilities. A kid who's partially afraid of a knife probably isn't going to get hurt by it; a kid who thinks the lockback protects him is in real danger of getting hurt.

Clearly, good instruction can bridge over a lot of these problems, but how many kids get good instruction?

 

[singularity35]

Actually, the behavioral change happens universally. It's not an on/off switch; people just begin to take a few more risks. They run more yellow lights, even a few red ones. They change lanes without really looking, they indulge in more show-off activities. It's a human universal, and a very ineresting and important human psychological problem.

Do you automatically drive stupidly because you have abs, seatbelts, and airbags? If you don't then that makes my case. Also, what makes you drive differently from the idiots?

Let's stop talking about the idiots and focus on the guys who have sense.

Backsprings: This is Pinnah's point, and I'm agree wholeheartedly with it. We're not speaking about GEC "alligator" backsprings, but just the normal spring tension that adults don't even think about anymore and forget is a problem for most kids (me included, when I think back).

Kids indeed can learn on any tool, but think that starting with one that has no backstop (= locking mechanism) is a better way to in culcate a small-to-medium sense of fear at a knife's capabilities. A kid who's partially afraid of a knife probably isn't going to get hurt by it; a kid who thinks the lockback protects him is in real danger of getting hurt.

It is the mentor's duty to inculcate a proper sense of respect for the tool. I guess if you think you are incapable of that then only slip joints will fit the bill. However if you are confident(with reason of course) that you can teach a child well, then the tool will not be an issue.

Clearly, good instruction can bridge over a lot of these problems, but how many kids get good instruction?

Well, then in that case it's not the knife's fault, as you are making it out to be. In the case of bad instruction, the onus falls upon the student. Once again with bad instruction, bad students will be bad students and good students will behave according to character.

If you believe this, then let's put the blame where it should be, on bad instruction. Not on the knife that has the capacity "to make a person do stupid things".

 

[knifetime]

Sargent makes Boy scout knives.

 

[RedLynx]

And just on the off chance people think I am advocating a locking knife as the only proper first knife I will leave this here, from yesterday (had to go back quite a few pages to find it again, geez)

Regardless of all else, this is the reason. I think a slipjoint is a great first knife. I think a friction folder is a great first knife. I think a locking knife is a great first knife.

In general, I think a knife is a great first knife.

 

[singularity35]

And just on the off chance people think I am advocating a locking knife as the only proper first knife I will leave this here, from yesterday (had to go back quite a few pages to find it again, geez)

Haha, afraid of catching flak?

 

[RedLynx]

Haha, afraid of catching flak?

Meh, I guess sorta yeah. I mean I suppose it'd be a relatively small amount and would blow over... in the grand scheme we're not really discussing some sort of universal knife law or something. I guess it's more a case of preferring not to be misrepresented by what I say/have said. I dislike that so when I see posts like "I just love all the people saying..." and I said something that might have been taken that way, I prefer to clarify. Guess it's up to them to believe me or not. Oh well.

 

[singularity35]

Meh, I guess sorta yeah. I mean I suppose it'd be a relatively small amount and would blow over... in the grand scheme we're not really discussing some sort of universal knife law or something. I guess it's more a case of preferring not to be misrepresented by what I say/have said. I dislike that so when I see posts like "I just love all the people saying..." and I said something that might have been taken that way, I prefer to clarify. Guess it's up to them to believe me or not. Oh well.

Hehehe I hear you. I doubt that people even notice what my position is. All they see is "slip joint hater".

 

[RedLynx]

Hehehe I hear you. I doubt that people even notice what my position is. All they see is "slip joint hater".

Hopefully not, as I think it is clear you enjoy both (or all, if we include even more like friction folders).

I guess when I stop to think, those people who suggest a slip as the first knife, must have reasons for doing so (and hopefully they go beyond what I'm pretty sure is the reason for a lot of people, which is "it's what I learned with so it must be okay for other kids too"). I, too, learned first with a slipjoint and it is a great first knife. I just don't see why the same care and respect for the pointy and edged part of a knife are somehow going to be less likely to be instilled or lost altogether if a locking knife is what is used. That just doesn't make sense to me, but seems to be the main focus of some posters. But again, to each their own and they have their reasons.

Knives are awesome and any knife is a great first knife. Heck, a fixed blade makes an awesome first knife, and I speak from secondhand experience watching young cousins grow up with them.

 

[chris0827]

What's wrong with a hard use knife? A lot of fixed blades will fit the bill.

And is this you giving up?

The only insisting I see here are the slip joint people insisting that locking knives are the devil's spawn. :foot:

BTW, can you point out a specific post where I "insisted" on a locking knife for a first time user? I don't really have an argument against using slip joints, you are the ones arguing against. All I have to do is refute your arguments which is pretty easy seeing as they are only preferences with contrived assumptions.

Not giving up- but confused by what you're trying to prove overall. Seems to me like one minute you're saying a locking knife is best for kids, then the next, you're saying a lock doesn't matter?

I wouldn't describe myself as one of the "slipjoint people". I carry a locking folder every day, but still believe a SAK or "Scout" knife is the best choice for a kids first knife.

 

[dogstar]

Do you automatically drive stupidly because you have abs, seatbelts, and airbags? If you don't then that makes my case. Also, what makes you drive differently from the idiots?

I believe people take more risks because of ABS, AWD, airbags. What is considered a "safe speed" keeps going up, and the number of accidents remains the same, despite these added safety features.

This ongoing thread may be of relevance here: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1193487-Lucky-I-still-have-a-thumb

 

[redsquid2]

One of my Scout Masters said he had seen too many boys hurt themselves when a blade folded up on their fingers. he therefore preferred that we carry alocking knife or fixed blade. That was 1980, and that was when I bought my first lockback. All of us boys followed this scout master's suggestions because he was an Eagle Scout, West Point grad, and Ranger.

 

[singularity35]

Hopefully not, as I think it is clear you enjoy both (or all, if we include even more like friction folders).

I guess when I stop to think, those people who suggest a slip as the first knife, must have reasons for doing so (and hopefully they go beyond what I'm pretty sure is the reason for a lot of people, which is "it's what I learned with so it must be okay for other kids too"). I, too, learned first with a slipjoint and it is a great first knife. I just don't see why the same care and respect for the pointy and edged part of a knife are somehow going to be less likely to be instilled or lost altogether if a locking knife is what is used. That just doesn't make sense to me, but seems to be the main focus of some posters. But again, to each their own and they have their reasons.

Knives are awesome and any knife is a great first knife. Heck, a fixed blade makes an awesome first knife, and I speak from secondhand experience watching young cousins grow up with them.

Haha, right there is what I mean.

Not giving up- but confused by what you're trying to prove overall. Seems to me like one minute you're saying a locking knife is best for kids, then the next, you're saying a lock doesn't matter?

I wouldn't describe myself as one of the "slipjoint people". I carry a locking folder every day, but still believe a SAK or "Scout" knife is the best choice for a kids first knife.

My stance is simple really. A first knife can be a slip joint or a locking folder or a fixed blade, the tool doesn't matter. It's the quality of the instruction that matters. A good teacher will teach respect for the tool and it's limitations. I'm saying a child can learn to use a knife equally well on any kind of knife.

Number 2, I really object to the premise that a lock is a crutch and will make a person do stupid things with the knife. I am saying that a stupid person will be stupid whether he uses a slip joint or a locking folder.

Number 3 I really object to the examples being used wherein the slip joint user is without question, a sensible user, and that the locking knife user is always stupid and will stress his lock to the point of catastrophic failure. This is always the argument that the "slip joint only" camp puts forward.

And number 4, "the lock ain't a safety device".

Oh and there's the bad analogy guys too.

 

[singularity35]

I believe people take more risks because of ABS, AWD, airbags. What is considered a "safe speed" keeps going up, and the number of accidents remains the same, despite these added safety features.

Aren't you taking into account the number of vehicles that are on the roads today? More cars, more idiots Number two, is it the car's fault that drivers are stupid? Do you drive stupidly because you have safety features? A car doesn't make a person "do" anything. People need to travel longer distances more often and need to be on time. You really can't blame the car's features alone because of other factors in the present day life. What about a mobile phone? Is it the phone's fault that drivers are stupid? Do you talk on the phone while driving because you can?

Didn't people use to barnstorm their planes in the '30's? By your logic, we should have more of those today because of safer planes.

Do you use a knife in a stupid way because it has a lock? Well, do you?

This ongoing thread may be of relevance here: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1193487-Lucky-I-still-have-a-thumb

That wasn't using. He was cleaning his knife and yes, his technique in drying the knife caused the injury. I'm not going to call him stupid but he should have known better. Not the knife's fault as the user admits. Besides one example does not your argument make, and there's also one slip joint user in that thread who got cut with his slippie, so your example is cancelled out.

 

[chris0827]

Haha, right there is what I mean.



My stance is simple really. A first knife can be a slip joint or a locking folder or a fixed blade, the tool doesn't matter. It's the quality of the instruction that matters. A good teacher will teach respect for the tool and it's limitations. I'm saying a child can learn to use a knife equally well on any kind of knife.

Number 2, I really object to the premise that a lock is a crutch and will make a person do stupid things with the knife. I am saying that a stupid person will be stupid whether he uses a slip joint or a locking folder.

Number 3 I really object to the examples being used wherein the slip joint user is without question, a sensible user, and that the locking knife user is always stupid and will stress his lock to the point of catastrophic failure. This is always the argument that the "slip joint only" camp puts forward.

And number 4, "the lock ain't a safety device".

Oh and there's the bad analogy guys too.

I haven't made any analogies. Just stated facts and opinions.

A lock isn't a crutch, and slipjoint people aren't "smarter". Learning with a slipjoint starts you with the most simplistic design you have to be most careful with! The thought being, you can always add a lock later, but bad habits can last forever.

 

[singularity35]

I haven't made any analogies. Just stated facts and opinions.

A lock isn't a crutch, and slipjoint people aren't "smarter". Learning with a slipjoint starts you with the most simplistic design you have to be most careful with! The thought being, you can always add a lock later, but bad habits can last forever.

Yeh, well that's your premise and I don't think I'm too stupid to understand what you mean but I have made it obvious I disagree with you and have made my own arguments. I guess you're still saying people don't have the capacity to learn proper knife use with a locking folder. Man, you sure look down on people's abilities.

I'll state my own position once again since you just paraphrased your other posts. I don't think that it's impossible for a child or an adult to learn proper knife use with a locking folder. I don't think that when instructed properly, that a user will develop bad habits by using a locking knife.

I learned knife use with fixed blades and machetes, why don't I use folders in a stupid manner? I believe I don't have bad knife use habits, I wonder why when I didn't learn on slip joints.

Answer me this, why don't I use knives stupidly when I didn't learn on a slip joint?

I also suspect that this argument is not convincing anybody. In fact, the people who are with you will be with you and those who aren't won't.

 

[ev13wt]

I can meet you halfway on that... I just don't think it is the only lesson that teaches respect for an edged tool, or the only way that respect can be taught... I assume you do as you say without this particular lesson there is no respect. That would be my only point of contention... but I don't really care, we are beating this thing to death (and this thread hasn't failed yet )

Then again it is a discussion forum, guess we might as well.

I agree. A blade aka sharp tool is something inherently dangerous. Here will be respect if taught properly. Heck it starts with mom saying: Don't run with that fork/knife/scissors!"

I believe people take more risks because of ABS, AWD, airbags. What is considered a "safe speed" keeps going up, and the number of accidents remains the same, despite these added safety features.

This ongoing thread may be of relevance here: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1193487-Lucky-I-still-have-a-thumb

So what is a safe speed? In Germany in normal traffic the general speed is 100 mph in the middle lane, with people in the passing/fast lane going up to 125. The trucks in the right lane are speed limited to 51 mph.

A license costs a grand to two, all drivers have a minimum of quality instruction of 12 hour driving and 10 hours theoretical. The test is not easy and 20% of first timers fail either theoretical or practical.

All cars must undergo a 140 dollar mechanical inspection every two year (separate from smog checks). Everything gets tested, brakes, dampers, bushings, linkages, lights, rust. If anything fails you have two weeks to fix it and return or your car doesn't get its "sticker". In the winter months it is mandatory to have winter tires. It's an enforced law. All rim and tire combinations must not only be "legal" with a certain stamp, you cannot just put whatever you want on your car. You need to go to the mechanical test place and get them certified and entered into your cars papers. Engine and brake mods are very strict and unless you do very high quality work and adapt the brake system you don't stand a chance to get it certified.

Generally, while there are idiot drivers, its pretty safe to drive in Germany. I go there on business a lot so I do have actual experience. One thing I love is nobody passes on the right ever, except in high traffic where everyone is going 60 or slower.

Just saying. A tool that is well maintained with the user highly educated is usually a safe process.

Idiots are everywhere of course, in knives and cars...

 

[midnight flyer]

My gawd.... this is still raging on? Does anyone remember the kid involved in this discussion?

If this thread represents the fathers of knife carrying boys, I would buy him anything but a knife. A whiffle bat, a Parcheesi board, a bag of marbles... anything to keep him from having to go through all of this redundant discussion with other parents or his buddies. This is a lot more painful than any cuts he would get from a knife.

Better yet... a big club and a dead horse might fit the bill more closely... then he could join right in.

Robert

 

[SCWillson]

Who ever said we should depend on locks and do stupid things? As has been mentioned before, proper knife use is the key. Just like you don't act stupid with an gun with an engaged safety. The mechanism is there in case of an unforeseen event. It's not going to be used as a substitute for a fixed blade. If a person uses a locking knife that way, then he'd probably be as stupid with a slip joint.

We're back again to the premise that locks make a person stupid when using a knife. Do you guys have any data supporting your premise that slip joints make a user smarter and locks make a person stupid?

You seem determined to be offended for some reason. In no way did I imply that not using slipjoints made one stupid, I merely made the observation that depending on a safety mechanism rather than safe practices is not the optimal way to be safe. I have nothing against lockbacks (I own only a single slipjoint and over a dozen lockbacks) and certainly don't think lockbacks make one stupid.

 

[singularity35]

You seem determined to be offended for some reason. In no way did I imply that not using slipjoints made one stupid, I merely made the observation that depending on a safety mechanism rather than safe practices is not the optimal way to be safe. I have nothing against lockbacks (I own only a single slipjoint and over a dozen lockbacks) and certainly don't think lockbacks make one stupid.

Here.

The only time I wold worry about a slipjoint "collapsing" on me would be if I was stabbing something, such as in a self-defense situation.

Having safety devices like blade locking mechanisms on knives or safeties on firearms is a fine idea, depending on them is not. Safe practices with knives, guns, or any other technological device which can cause injury are the best way to avoid getting hurt or hurting someone.

I am the one who is or is not safe, not my knife/gun/chainsaw.

You said "depending on them is not.".

Hence I answered with :

Who ever said we should depend on locks and do stupid things? As has been mentioned before, proper knife use is the key. Just like you don't act stupid with an gun with an engaged

It does seem like you're the one who is determined to be offended by me quoting you.

And I'll post my reply again with a bolded part.

Who ever said we should depend on locks and do stupid things? As has been mentioned before, proper knife use is the key. Just like you don't act stupid with an gun with an engaged

I wonder what part of that makes you think I am picking a fight(or determined to take insult)...

 

[singularity35]

My gawd.... this is still raging on? Does anyone remember the kid involved in this discussion?

If this thread represents the fathers of knife carrying boys, I would buy him anything but a knife. A whiffle bat, a Parcheesi board, a bag of marbles... anything to keep him from having to go through all of this redundant discussion with other parents or his buddies. This is a lot more painful than any cuts he would get from a knife.

Better yet... a big club and a dead horse might fit the bill more closely... then he could join right in.

Robert

He would be more traumatized by all the arguing and pontificating than he would a few cuts

Well, people keep repeating their objections to a locking knife as a first knife as if their repetition will make the assumption conclusive. So what would you have us do? At least with a dead horse, the horse is dead(obviously). This one still hasn't been settled(like it ever will), so it's going to have be a battle of stamina.