Safety of non-locking folders like Boy Scout & SAK

[chris0827]

Well, when you make a mistake and the Slipjoint blade snaps on your finger you will most probably be cut and learn from it.
When you make a mistake that makes the lock fail on a locking knife you will most probably lose the finger as there is much more force needed to make that happen.

What would you prefer happening to your child?

This makes a ton of sense!!!

 

[jazub]

Surprisingly emotional thread.

I guess if you can be assured that a child will never end up with another friend's/acquaintance's slipjoint in his hand, train him on a locking knife. On the bright side, if he does end up handling a slipjoint without your supervision, at least he'll have the wisdom and experience of another child training him in proper usage.

 

[RedLynx]

Surprisingly emotional thread.

I guess if you can be assured that a child will never end up with another friend's/acquaintance's slipjoint in his hand, train him on a locking knife. On the bright side, if he does end up handling a slipjoint without your supervision, at least he'll have the wisdom and experience of another child training him in proper usage.

NINE pages of awesomeness!!!!!

I think what I'm continuing to see here is that the main argument appears to be "your child will assume a locking knife cannot fail and will thus operate the knife under a dangerous misapprehension." If you, the mentor, teach proper knife safety, there is absolutely no reason for them to think that.

And just to reiterate for the OP, if you are more comfortable/feel safer with your child having a locking knife (and feel they are ready, for any knife in general, which is also important) get a dang Tri-Ad lock knife or whatever you want. It's your kid and you need to feel you're doing what's right. (Although Tri-Ad locks might be stiff for a kid).

 

[WRGreen]

Let's stir the cesspool a little more: perhaps the lock isn't a 'safety' device as much as just being a mechanism to keep the knife open while perfoming more aggressive tasks which might cause slip-joint closure. You know, like hacking, prying scraping and stabbing. All are encouraged for first-time learners.

 

[RedLynx]

Let's stir the cesspool a little more: perhaps the lock isn't a 'safety' device as much as just being a mechanism to keep the knife open while perfoming more aggressive tasks which might cause slip-joint closure. You know, like hacking, prying scraping and stabbing. All are encouraged for first-time learners.

Sure, why not? I have done all of the above, minus prying, with a slipjoint knife and it never closed once, because I was careful with them, even at a young age. Even those dreaded not recommended tasks can be done, and safely, with something like a slipjoint, if proper care is instilled and observed.

 

[WRGreen]

Exactly! but the knowledge of said extra care came from the initial respect/fear/training when learning to handle the slipjoint.

 

[RedLynx]

Exactly! but the knowledge of said extra care came from the initial respect/fear/training when learning to handle the slipjoint.

I see (and even agree with) your point, but why would a locking knife not do the same? Isn't the thing to be feared the sharp, pointy edge which all knives (except Gerber--just kidding Gerber, I still like some of your knives ) have? I know a lock might somehow instill some false sense of extra security, but I think mainly, we should learn to respect the edge of a knife no matter what, right?

 

[jkeips78]

Everyone I know carries a pocket knife. Many are slipjoints. Learned that term here. We always called them pocketknives. Lol I habe never heard of anyone having a blade close up on them. Use a tool properly and within its limitations and there will be no issues. IMO.

 

[Bob6794]

Once again spinning what I say out of context. The feedback both visual and what you feel are drastically different and more noticeable in the slip joint when you put pressure in the wrong way it will tell you far more in advance than a locking knife that you're doing something wrong. That instant feedback HELPS people learn. Should they have known in advance not to do that, yup. But lets be honest people do stuff like that anyway, I'd rather have someone or something tell them "what your doing is wrong" early on that they can't ignore than something that let them use something that let them continue what their doing.

Can you teach someone to be safe on a locking knife, yup you sure can. But I think a slip joint is a superior learning tool for the reason stated. I think the small risk up front to help insure you develop proper skills is far better in the long run.

What do I use a knife that would make a lock fail, nothing. Now what would someone use a knife for that is under the assumption the lock won't ever fail, use your imagination. I've had people who had access to my room before destroy one of my knives by using it as a throwing knife (didn't know about it till after it happened), seen others stab tree stumps/boards/etc, and the list goes on because they were under this weird magical assumption that locks don't fail. But they all knew and respected slip joints from what I could tell, or at least feared them. But lets be blunt these people were not the norm, they were well idiots.

See that's where your argument fails. You immediately assume that someone who uses a locking knife will not know that it can fail. That's basically the weakness of your argument. I'm not spinning anything. You're the one who says that people will act stupid when using a locking knife. I say that stupid people will act stupid no matter what the tool is, and on the reverse, that sensible people will be sensible no matter the tool.

Here I kept what you bolded and then bolded/underlined/italic some other parts of that post for you to keep in mind in my post, and kept the part you bolded. For the stupid people will act stupid and sensible people will act sensible when using tools, I agree with. At no point did I say using a locking knife automatically make you stupid, in fact I said that you can be competent with one. I argued that a slip joint is a better LEARNING AID due to it's properties.

I did not assume that someone who uses a locking knife will automatically assume it will never fail, at no point I've ever said that. You asked earlier what we are doing that make us worry that we make a knife lock fail, I told you the truth I do nothing that make a knife lock fail. Than I gave you examples of people who used a knife improperly which I have seen or known about in my life and even stated they are not the norm but the exception. My impression of those guys is that they didn't know a knife lock could fail, or could fail so easily on those $5 gas station knives they were using or I bet they wouldn't have been doing what they were doing. They also didn't attempt those feats with a slip joint due to knowing that without a lock the knife would have a high failure rate and would be a lot more dangerous to do those things so it forced them to use it more intelligently which is why it was more feared/respected. These guys would probably fall under stupid in your book, idiots in mine, as they didn't use a tool sensibly. The main difference between the two was with one they thought they were safe to act like idiots with and the other they thought was too dangerous to act like idiots with. But in truth they were in danger if they acted like idiots with both types of knives, one just made it more noticeable. And as I said before these guys weren't the norm but the exception.

 

[WRGreen]

"I can feel this knife's 'joint' start to 'slip'; I'd better slow down and cut more safely!"

 

[22-rimfire]

I chuckle at the mentor comment above. That's good for a 7 year old, but a 10 year old.... kid, here's the knife. Hope you like it and don't cut yourself or take it to school. If it is a modern and especially an assisted opener... kid, don't be flicking this open where it will make people nervous, but learn how to flick it open quickly anyway and you can impress your friends....

And most importantly, kid, don't use your knife as a pry bar, we have pry bars in the garage. Use a screw driver for screws.

 

[ev13wt]

One thing that is important is that by learning using a slipjoint is that no matter how much you "teach" the fact remains that it WILL fold on you if you operate it wrong.

Many times the knife will fold just a bit without anything bad happening. This is the lesson 90% of people will learn and from then on will have respect for the mechanisms and its shortcomings. It is then pretty intuitive how NOT to use a folding knife.

Without this lesson, there is not respect. Without respect things WHEN they happen will probably be much worse.

 

[RedLynx]

One thing that is important is that by learning using a slipjoint is that no matter how much you "teach" the fact remains that it WILL fold on you if you operate it wrong.

Many times the knife will fold just a bit without anything bad happening. This is the lesson 90% of people will learn and from then on will have respect for the mechanisms and its shortcomings. It is then pretty intuitive how NOT to use a folding knife.

Without this lesson, there is not respect. Without respect things WHEN they happen will probably be much worse.

I can meet you halfway on that... I just don't think it is the only lesson that teaches respect for an edged tool, or the only way that respect can be taught... I assume you do as you say without this particular lesson there is no respect. That would be my only point of contention... but I don't really care, we are beating this thing to death (and this thread hasn't failed yet )

Then again it is a discussion forum, guess we might as well.

 

[singularity35]

"I can feel this knife's 'joint' start to 'slip'; I'd better slow down and cut more safely!"

Why are you putting force on the opposite side of the cutting edge?

Let's stir the cesspool a little more: perhaps the lock isn't a 'safety' device as much as just being a mechanism to keep the knife open while perfoming more aggressive tasks which might cause slip-joint closure. You know, like hacking, prying scraping and stabbing. All are encouraged for first-time learners.

Oh yeah, there's that argument again. If a device prevents injury, it's a safety device. Whether you think it works well or not, doesn't change the nomenclature.

This makes a ton of sense!!!

Well, when you make a mistake and the Slipjoint blade snaps on your finger you will most probably be cut and learn from it.
When you make a mistake that makes the lock fail on a locking knife you will most probably lose the finger as there is much more force needed to make that happen.

What would you prefer happening to your child?

My reply. You could have read it but you chose to ignore it.

Why would you assume that the force applied in closing is much greater on a locking folder than on a slipjoint? In any given accident, if the same force is applied to the spine of both a locking knife and a slip joint, which one do you think will close first? Are you making the assumption again that a locking folder will fail with a much greater force because the user is being stupid? If a force is applied is enough to defeat a good quality lock, do you think that that force will not be enough to close a slip joint hard enough to cause the same injury?

 

[RedLynx]

Why are you putting force on the opposite side of the cutting edge?

When raising my voice doesn't work with my woman, I raise the flat side of my blade. 60% of the time it works, every time.

 

[singularity35]

Here I kept what you bolded and then bolded/underlined/italic some other parts of that post for you to keep in mind in my post, and kept the part you bolded. For the stupid people will act stupid and sensible people will act sensible when using tools, I agree with. At no point did I say using a locking knife automatically make you stupid, in fact I said that you can be competent with one. I argued that a slip joint is a better LEARNING AID due to it's properties.

I did not assume that someone who uses a locking knife will automatically assume it will never fail, at no point I've ever said that. You asked earlier what we are doing that make us worry that we make a knife lock fail, I told you the truth I do nothing that make a knife lock fail. Than I gave you examples of people who used a knife improperly which I have seen or known about in my life and even stated they are not the norm but the exception. My impression of those guys is that they didn't know a knife lock could fail, or could fail so easily on those $5 gas station knives they were using or I bet they wouldn't have been doing what they were doing. They also didn't attempt those feats with a slip joint due to knowing that without a lock the knife would have a high failure rate and would be a lot more dangerous to do those things so it forced them to use it more intelligently which is why it was more feared/respected. These guys would probably fall under stupid in your book, idiots in mine, as they didn't use a tool sensibly. The main difference between the two was with one they thought they were safe to act like idiots with and the other they thought was too dangerous to act like idiots with. But in truth they were in danger if they acted like idiots with both types of knives, one just made it more noticeable. And as I said before these guys weren't the norm but the exception.

There you are yet you are making generalizations when your examples self admittedly the exception.

And that is what I've been saying all along. Knife+idiot=bad things. No matter what kind of knife. A knife is just a knife no matter what kind it is but an idiot is always a recipe to disaster.

Yet somehow slip joint people will ignore that fact and will always use sensible guys using slip joints as the example and will compare them to idiots using locking knives. I guess that's the only way that the argument can be made to hold water.

 

[AreBeeBee]

Singularity35, there are several issues here that you're ignoring.

• The well-established behavioral change in people (adults and kids) -- engaging in more risky activities -- when safety devices are in use.

• The difficulty of safely closing a knife with a backspring for young people with small and/or weaker hands.

• Young people learning to respect the capabilities and limits of tools, and learning how not to exceed those limits.

In my experience, a non-locking knife that fails on a user who is misusing it will likely do somewhat less harm to the person than what follows the failure of locking knife.

Sure, counterexamples for all of these can be cited. But any adult reading this endless exchange has long since concluded that when a young person is going to get their first knife, it is best to start them slow and simple and teach them respect for a tool that can do great harm if misused.

 

[singularity35]

Singularity35, there are several issues here that you're ignoring.

• The well-established behavioral change in people (adults and kids) -- engaging in more risky activities -- when safety devices are in use.

That behavioral change happens only when there is improper instruction and supervision.

• The difficulty of safely closing a knife with a backspring for young people with small and/or weaker hands.

Which knives have strong backsprings again? Slip joints or locking knives? Which knife needs a strong spring to keep it open?

• Young people learning to respect the capabilities and limits of tools, and learning how not to exceed those limits.

Which they can learn on any tool.


In my experience, a non-locking knife that fails on a user who is misusing it will likely do somewhat less harm to the person than what follows the failure of locking knife.

Sure, counterexamples for all of these can be cited. But any adult reading this endless exchange has long since concluded that when a young person is going to get their first knife, it is best to start them slow and simple and teach them respect for a tool that can do great harm if misused.

I haven't ignored those issues and I've replied to them if you cared to read back. The part of your post I bolded is also about as true as any of your premises and assumptions. You are projecting your mind to "any adult" as well.

 

[chris0827]

LOL, I can't help but think that the people here insisting a first time user needs a locking knife are the same types that ask for recommendations on a good knife for "hard use".

 

[singularity35]

LOL, I can't help but think that the people here insisting a first time user needs a locking knife are the same types that ask for recommendations on a good knife for "hard use".

What's wrong with a hard use knife? A lot of fixed blades will fit the bill.

And is this you giving up?

The only insisting I see here are the slip joint people insisting that locking knives are the devil's spawn. :foot:

BTW, can you point out a specific post where I "insisted" on a locking knife for a first time user? I don't really have an argument against using slip joints, you are the ones arguing against. All I have to do is refute your arguments which is pretty easy seeing as they are only preferences with contrived assumptions.