Safety of non-locking folders like Boy Scout & SAK

[jackknife]

Ya know, this can all be putin a nutshell. Theres two kinds of knives in the world.

Folding knives:

And unfolding knives:

If you really don't want your knife folding up on you, don't carry a knife that folds.

 

[22-rimfire]

I know that you can get cut improperly using a slip joint. I know you can get cut using any knife improperly or simply not paying attention. I recommend getting the SAK as a first knife. My Vic Adventurer model locks. I wouldn't trust my life to the lock, but then I wouldn't on any knife.

Kids learn how to drive. We learned how to drive and we made mistakes just like they will. Same goes with knives. I'd get him a medium sized Vic Sak or if he wants to carry it on his belt (in a pouch) one of the larger 111mm ones. I prefer the 111mm Saks myself and pocket carry them, but I'm not a kid any more.

By Age 10, I was carrying a full sized Case Barlow (probably 3.5" closed length) by that time and I loved the knife. Part of using a knife safely is using one that is big enough to hold properly. Small hands... small knife; bigger hands.... bigger knife. At 10 years old, a kid needs to learn how to do things for himself and that includes using a knife safely... scouts or no scouts.

 

[skyhorse]

That's been agreed on way back in this thread if you ever bothered to read the posts. The problem is that some people think that being safety conscious is the exclusive province of slip joint users and that locking knife users become automatically stupid.

No need to read this,it's simple if you're too stupid to operate a folding knife stick with fixed blades.

 

[singularity35]

No need to read this,it's simple if you're too stupid to operate a folding knife stick with fixed blades.

Are we getting mad? I've used a folding knife with a few other tools to basically make my own nipa hut at my farm. So as you see, I'm not too stupid to use a folding knife. You're comprehension on the other hand....

Yep, let's start insulting each other so we can make a better point.

 

[singularity35]

Once again spinning what I say out of context. The feedback both visual and what you feel are drastically different and more noticeable in the slip joint when you put pressure in the wrong way it will tell you far more in advance than a locking knife that you're doing something wrong. That instant feedback HELPS people learn. Should they have known in advance not to do that, yup. But lets be honest people do stuff like that anyway, I'd rather have someone or something tell them "what your doing is wrong" early on that they can't ignore than something that let them use something that let them continue what their doing.

Can you teach someone to be safe on a locking knife, yup you sure can. But I think a slip joint is a superior learning tool for the reason stated. I think the small risk up front to help insure you develop proper skills is far better in the long run.

What do I use a knife that would make a lock fail, nothing. Now what would someone use a knife for that is under the assumption the lock won't ever fail, use your imagination. I've had people who had access to my room before destroy one of my knives by using it as a throwing knife (didn't know about it till after it happened), seen others stab tree stumps/boards/etc, and the list goes on because they were under this weird magical assumption that locks don't fail. But they all knew and respected slip joints from what I could tell, or at least feared them. But lets be blunt these people were not the norm, they were well idiots.

See that's where your argument fails. You immediately assume that someone who uses a locking knife will not know that it can fail. That's basically the weakness of your argument. I'm not spinning anything. You're the one who says that people will act stupid when using a locking knife. I say that stupid people will act stupid no matter what the tool is, and on the reverse, that sensible people will be sensible no matter the tool.

Literally nobody in this thread is saying any of those things.

What are they saying then? Please explain.

It just seems that they keep repeating what they believe and that that repetition will be the clinching argument. Actually everything has been said in previous posts. It's just that a new guy who didn't read the previous posts and replies comes up repeating what has been said and expecting his post to be the end all and be all of this argument. So I just repeat what I said to a previous poster with the same sentiment.

 

[singularity35]

Let's go over the arguments again.

1. Locking folders are not proper to learn on because the locks become a crutch and these people will come to rely and believe a lock is infallible and will therefore do stupid things with their knives.

2. Since a lot of people have learned proper knife use with slip joints, it should be good enough for everyone.

3. Safety devices make people do stupid things.

All those arguments don't take into account the sensible student. The arguments are merely focusing on the "stupid" people and as an extension to that, the conclusion is even being made that having a lock will make a use do stupid things with that knife.

There's really no basis to make that conclusion but rather just the beliefs.

And those arguments are not even addressing the fact that WITH PROPER USE, a locking knife is every bit as safe and may even be a little safer than slip joints in case of an unforeseen and unexpected force being applied in the wrong direction. The presumption is being made that slip joint users won't ever make the mistake of applying force in the wrong direction.

When talking about safety, there is always an apples to oranges comparison because slip joint users are always presumed to use their knives sensibly and these are then being compared to persons using their locking knives in an irresponsible manner.

Additionally, the presumption is being made that users of locking knives will exert so much force in the improper direction that when, not if, when the lock fails, it will fail catastrophically and at the very least cut off a finger.

Let's compare in an apples to apples situation, both users using their knives sensibly. Which knife will fail?

 

[22-rimfire]

Of course slip joint users are the most sensible of knife owners in general. Slip joints aren't much good for tossing at a tree or stabbing a box.

 

[singularity35]

Of course slip joint users are the most sensible of knife owners in general. Slip joints aren't much good for tossing at a tree or stabbing a box.

Is that your way of saying that stupid knife users got that way from using locking knives?

Stupid users will always be stupid and will choose knives for the wrong reasons. No object will make a person stupid, but I'm sure you know that.

 

[skyhorse]

Are we getting mad? I've used a folding knife with a few other tools to basically make my own nipa hut at my farm. So as you see, I'm not too stupid to use a folding knife. You're comprehension on the other hand....

Yep, let's start insulting each other so we can make a better point.

No my friend not mad at all,it's just that even a five year old of my generation had no problems operating any folding knife safely.When did this become a problem?

 

[goodeyesniper]

You basically gave your child a death sentence handing him that slip joint. How dare you.

It's like teaching your child to walk on floor covered in Lego blocks! You're sick!

 

[singularity35]

No my friend not mad at all,it's just that even a five year old of my generation had no problems operating any folding knife safely.When did this become a problem?

Who ever said there was a problem operating a knife? The question in this thread was the OP wanting to know which knife to teach his children on, slip joint or locking knife. The the only people who raised the problem of improper knife use were the slip joint only people.

 

[singularity35]

You basically gave your child a death sentence handing him that slip joint. How dare you.

It's like teaching your child to walk on floor covered in Lego blocks! You're sick!

Is that you giving up on giving arguments?

BTW, it always is a good way to debate when you take something, take it to an absurd level and make it like it's the position of your opponent.

 

[22-rimfire]

Just telling it like it is at least from my point of view. Isn't that the purpose of threads asking for advice on selection and and so forth? I love my GEC slip joints.

 

[singularity35]

Just telling it like it is at least from my point of view. Isn't that the purpose of threads asking for advice on selection and and so forth? I love my GEC slip joints.

I'm sure you do. I'd love them if I had them, they are great knives.

 

[goodeyesniper]

Is that you giving up on giving arguments?

BTW, it always is a good way to debate when you take something, take it to an absurd level and make it like it's the position of your opponent.

When people beat me to absurdities comparing slip joint usage to driving unsafe cars, I can't help myself. I must poke fun.

 

[singularity35]

When people beat me to absurdities comparing slip joint usage to driving unsafe cars, I can't help myself. I must poke fun.

The comparison wasn't that a slip joint is as unsafe as a car with no safety devices. The comparison was an parallel of the purpose of the safety devices in the knife and the car.

Let me see. Slip joint has nothing that will prevent it closing when pressure is applied from an improper direction. Only safety is operator skill. Automobile with no safety devices? What's to keep the operator safe? Operator skill of course.

Now locking knife. In case of improperly directed force, the lock may save operator from injury. Airbags and seatbelts? May also save the operator from injury in case of improperly applied force. The devices or mechanisms are designed and are there to protect operator from injury. Where's the absurdity? Poking fun is also a good defense mechanism when your argument is weak.

 

[22-rimfire]

Sing, I suspect Knives Ship Free would ship to the Philippines. Yeah, they cost a bit more than Case or most Queens.

One of GEC's Sodbusters would make a very good "scout knife" unless their are restrictions to approved knives only.

 

[singularity35]

Sing, I suspect Knives Ship Free would ship to the Philippines. Yeah, they cost a bit more than Case or most Queens.

One of GEC's Sodbusters would make a very good "scout knife" unless their are restrictions to approved knives only.

Sure, they will. I've had my eye on a GEC for some time now. Maybe a TC Barlow. They look great and I'm sure they cut very well.

About the restrictions on scout knives, there's none here in the Philippines. Most scouts here use fixed blades. We are a knife culture after all.

 

[calvinw]

As I've said before, you're absolutely free to believe what you want when it comes to your child, even if it flies in the face of proven programs that predate us all (and will still be around long after we're gone). If you choose to shelter them from the realities of life and impart upon them illusions of safety, then that is your prerogative.

Bah. You're so right. I am being overprotective of my child when I say you're deferring to an un-agreed-upon authority.

 

[22-rimfire]

The TC Barlow or KSF's Madison Barlow would be very good choices. Have them. I'll probably get another TC Barlow as time passes. Mine is one of the yellow bone handled ones. Just thought it really different from what I own. The TC Barlow would make a very good everyday knife for a young person who is not wanting an assisted opener. The traditional scout knife design is not one that grabs me, but I have always liked the Vic SAKs and I guess many fit right into the scout knife design.

You can only protect your children so much. They have to learn their own way as they progress on life's journey. Dealing with kids in school can be one of the more challenging items at times if you lean toward a non-violent approach to life.