Safety of non-locking folders like Boy Scout & SAK

[jfalkos]

In my opinion, learning to use a non-locking knife will benefit a young person most. He will treat the cutting edge and tip with more respect if it can fold back on him with improper use. Probably the best building block in usage for somebody who wants to keep all his fingers long term.

As to your question of such a knife as a self defense weapon, I always have my fingers crossed that the next James Bond or Jason Bourne movie will feature the good guy making do with such an option in a knife mismatch with the bad guy

Noooo we don't want that! Next thing we know, Swiss Army knives will be banned as weapons.

 

[Freman Bloodglaive]

Anything with a sharp edge can be used as a weapon. You can hold an SAK with a razor grip (fingers pinching the blade) and slice like that.

However I really wouldn't want to see anyone using an SAK like that, it just seems... wrong... to me.

A Huntsman will be fine as a first SAK.

 

[pinnah]

I want to get a folder for my 11 year old nephew who is also in the Boy Scouts. Apparently the don't make "Boy Scout" Knives anymore, but Victorinox makes a "Hunter" Swiss Army knife with Boy Scout Emblem.

The funny thing is I grew up on similar folding knives, but as I got older and got into the "sickness" that is modern knife collecting, all my folders have locking blades. I got this weird concern that maybe the blade will fold back on his fingers with use, even though it never happened to me. On a side note if I had a similar knife as an EDC, would it be completely ineffective as a Self Defense weapon?

Anyway just curious on everyone's thoughts. If I hear nothing but horror stories, I'll just get him a regular locking folder or a small multi-tool.

I think you are confusing 2 separate issues. The first is the ability of young weak hands to handle a folding knife with sprung blades, lock or otherwise. My recommendation is to get a friction folder like am Opinel until you are confident he or she can handle a slip joint safely.

The second issue you are wrestling with is the chance of a slip joint closing unexpectedly. This can mostly on happen when: making piercing/stabbing cut, when trying to free a stuck blade and when using the blade as a pry bar. The simple answer is to teach your child to just not do these things. In this regard, slip joints were the second knife for my son after his first Opinel.

There is a 3rd issue. Lock backs and frame locks are more complicated to close safely. Handling the sprung blade needs to be second nature to deal with the lock on top of it. My son is 13 and is only now ready for a lock back.

 

[singularity35]

I want to get a folder for my 11 year old nephew who is also in the Boy Scouts. Apparently the don't make "Boy Scout" Knives anymore, but Victorinox makes a "Hunter" Swiss Army knife with Boy Scout Emblem.

The funny thing is I grew up on similar folding knives, but as I got older and got into the "sickness" that is modern knife collecting, all my folders have locking blades. I got this weird concern that maybe the blade will fold back on his fingers with use, even though it never happened to me. On a side note if I had a similar knife as an EDC, would it be completely ineffective as a Self Defense weapon?

Anyway just curious on everyone's thoughts. If I hear nothing but horror stories, I'll just get him a regular locking folder or a small multi-tool.

Teach him proper use THEN get him a locking folder. That way he'll have the "false sense of security" that good drivers have with their airbags, seatbelts, anti-lock brakes, etc. have.

I wonder why some people always equate a locking folder with stupid knife use. :thumbdn:

proper knife use+ safety features=WIN

 

[EChoil]

A boy's first knife should be a slipjoint. I believe knife safety is best taught and remembered on a non-locker.

 

[Tripwire895]

Rest assured, if the blade folds over onto his fingers it will only happen once and a lesson will have been learned.

This x1000.

I'm an Eagle Scout now. When I bridged into Boy Scouts, I was given one of the official BSA knives, made by Camillus before they went off the deep end. One campout, I was trying to cut the cardboard sleeve off the bottom of a coat hanger and ended up closing the knife on my finger (don't ask how, I've been asking myself that for the past 8 years and I still don't know). I was about to need stitches but got lucky. I still have the scar on my knuckle. While I don't use that knife much any more, I still learned my lesson and apply that to all knives. I still love the knife though.

Sorry for the horror story, but it's true. I learned from that and now I feel I'm much more careful around any sharp edge. He'll do just fine with a Victorinox, my personal preference would be the StayGlow BSA model though.

As far as self defense goes, I mean, there is an awl you can extend and form a fist around the rest if need be. I wouldn't recommend it, but it would be better than using the blade as a weapon (in my opinion).

 

[singularity35]

A boy's first knife should be a slipjoint. I believe knife safety is best taught and remembered on a non-locker.

I guess driving is best taught in cars with no safety devices too?

 

[kershawguy13]

I guess driving is best taught in cars with no safety devices too?

Apples and oranges...

 

[singularity35]

Apples and oranges...

That's what you "non safety device" guys always say...

 

[RedLynx]

Apples and oranges...

It isn't really though (big slipjoint fan here although mostly carry locking knives).

The essential argument in this thread has been "learn with a slipjoint and it'll only happen once." That might be true, but you can apply the same argument to driving. Once Tommy plows through a stop sign and ends up in a collision, he'll never do that again. Although the collision may result in death, and the blade closing may result in finger loss. It isn't necessarily true that the one lesson learned will be a minor nick or a scar.

 

[kershawguy13]

It isn't really though (big slipjoint fan here although mostly carry locking knives).

The essential argument in this thread has been "learn with a slipjoint and it'll only happen once." That might be true, but you can apply the same argument to driving. Once Tommy plows through a stop sign and ends up in a collision, he'll never do that again. Although the collision may result in death, and the blade closing may result in finger loss. It isn't necessarily true that the one lesson learned will be a minor nick or a scar.

Why can't you learn with a slip joint and it never happen? Are you saying all kids with a slippie get their finger cut off when they misuse it by stabbing, prying, etc?

 

[RedLynx]

Why can't you learn with a slip joint and it never happen? Are you saying all kids with a slippie get their finger cut off when they misuse it by stabbing, prying, etc?

No, although by that logic there is no reason for them to start with a slipjoint vs. a locking knife.

I'm simply addressing the point that some posters in the thread seem to equate "safety" features in knives, such as locking mechanisms, as somehow bad for a first knife, which doesn't make any sense to me. I see no reason why a first knife being a slipjoint would somehow foster better knife use and care. Proper knife use can be instilled in a kid using either model, really.

 

[singularity35]

No, although by that logic there is no reason for them to start with a slipjoint vs. a locking knife.

I'm simply addressing the point that some posters in the thread seem to equate "safety" features in knives, such as locking mechanisms, as somehow bad for a first knife, which doesn't make any sense to me. I see no reason why a first knife being a slipjoint would somehow foster better knife use and care. Proper knife use can be instilled in a kid using either model, really.

True, but I'd prefer a locking folder if I teach my granddaughter in case she makes a slip or two. She can use what she wants when she learns proper knife use.

 

[kershawguy13]

No, although by that logic there is no reason for them to start with a slipjoint vs. a locking knife.

I'm simply addressing the point that some posters in the thread seem to equate "safety" features in knives, such as locking mechanisms, as somehow bad for a first knife, which doesn't make any sense to me. I see no reason why a first knife being a slipjoint would somehow foster better knife use and care. Proper knife use can be instilled in a kid using either model, really.

A non-locking folder teaches us to not rely on locks, and think before we cut. Locks CAN fail.

 

[RedLynx]

True, but I'd prefer a locking folder if I teach my granddaughter in case she makes a slip or two. She can use what she wants when she learns proper knife use.

I can see that being a concern, certainly. Personally I did learn with a slipjoint at 6 and never really got cut that I remember.

I did cut myself years later, with an A/O knife, as it happens, but it wasn't blade failure, I just dropped the knife and it hit the back of my other hand and cut it open.

Heck, I've even stabbed with a slipjoint no problem... opened a pack of razors for my Gilette a few days ago... the recommend scissors but I already had a Case Sod Buster in my pocket. Didn't close the knife or anything... Although I think there's something to be said for me being an older person rather than a young child trying to stab with it.

I guess all in all I certainly see someone wanting a locking knife for their grandchild, I just don't understand the point of some posters in seemingly saying that it is better to learn properly with a non-locking knife as a first knife. I could be misreading but that seems to be the general consensus here, and despite my first knife being a non-locker, (same with most people I know) I don't think I'd agree it's inherently better simply because it is "potentially more accident prone" or whatever the reason is.

 

[singularity35]

A non-locking folder teaches us to not rely on locks, and think before we cut. Locks CAN fail.

Does a good driver rely on his seatbelts and airbags? No, he relies on his driving skill and common sense. Same with using locking folders. Can a lock fail? Sure, the same way a seatbelt or airbag can fail. BTW, this also addresses your apples and oranges post.

I can see that being a concern, certainly. Personally I did learn with a slipjoint at 6 and never really got cut that I remember.

I did cut myself years later, with an A/O knife, as it happens, but it wasn't blade failure, I just dropped the knife and it hit the back of my other hand and cut it open.

Heck, I've even stabbed with a slipjoint no problem... opened a pack of razors for my Gilette a few days ago... the recommend scissors but I already had a Case Sod Buster in my pocket. Didn't close the knife or anything... Although I think there's something to be said for me being an older person rather than a young child trying to stab with it.

I guess all in all I certainly see someone wanting a locking knife for their grandchild, I just don't understand the point of some posters in seemingly saying that it is better to learn properly with a non-locking knife as a first knife. I could be misreading but that seems to be the general consensus here, and despite my first knife being a non-locker, (same with most people I know) I don't think I'd agree it's inherently better simply because it is "potentially more accident prone" or whatever the reason is.

Their main reason seems to be that locks will induce stupid behavior.

I'm all for using safer teaching methods and equipment.

 

[RedLynx]

A non-locking folder teaches us to not rely on locks, and think before we cut. Locks CAN fail.

Of course locks can fail, and any parent or grandparent should be teaching their child this. Whether you use a locking folder or not you shouldn't assume the lock is an infallible addition to the knife. Having said that, I don't agree that a non-locking folder teaches us not to rely on locks... that's the job of the mentor, whether they give the learner a locking knife or a non-locking one. Using a non-locking knife doesn't automatically instill more common sense.

By that logic, I could say "teaching my child to drive in a car without door locks teaches them not to rely on the door staying closed while on the road, or locks keeping thieves out of their car. The thief can still break in." There's simply no reason to assume the lock can't fail, and no reason why starting with a locking knife would somehow cause a child to think they can do whatever with it or apply whatever amount of force. If the mentor has done their job correctly, that is.

 

[singularity35]

Of course locks can fail, and any parent or grandparent should be teaching their child this. Whether you use a locking folder or not you shouldn't assume the lock is an infallible addition to the knife. Having said that, I don't agree that a non-locking folder teaches us not to rely on locks... that's the job of the mentor, whether they give the learner a locking knife or a non-locking one. Using a non-locking knife doesn't automatically instill more common sense.

Agreed. This is an inherent part of the teaching process.

 

[RedLynx]

Agreed. This is an inherent part of the teaching process.

People don't really like to hear it, because it places some responsibility for stupid behavior on their shoulders, but if a child behaves stupidly with a locking knife due to thinking the lock is infallible/relying on it too much... hate to say it but it just means you left out a crucial part of the knife curriculum. When I started getting into knives more and getting locking knives, my father had quite the detailed talk with me about locks and their proper place in the knife world, and not expecting too much from them.

 

[singularity35]

People don't really like to hear it, because it places some responsibility for stupid behavior on their shoulders, but if a child behaves stupidly with a locking knife due to thinking the lock is infallible/relying on it too much... hate to say it but it just means you left out a crucial part of the knife curriculum. When I started getting into knives more and getting locking knives, my father had quite the detailed talk with me about locks and their proper place in the knife world, and not expecting too much from them.

I grew up in a farm with workers using several types if bladed implements. I mostly learned from them. Nobody taught me how to use a folder but it's really self evident that if you apply a lot of force in the wrong direction and the lock fails, you'll get injured. I was an adult by this time though and had been carrying a bali since I was in college. If I teach a child or an adult for that matter, avoiding injuries will be one of the first things I'll try to impart.

I do think that the arguments about slippies being better to learn on is just a contrived argument meant to support a prejudice against modern folders.