Safety of non-locking folders like Boy Scout & SAK

singularity35 said:
I grew up in a farm with workers using several types if bladed implements. I mostly learned from them. Nobody taught me how to use a folder but it's really self evident that if you apply a lot of force in the wrong direction and the lock fails, you'll get injured. I was an adult by this time though and had been carrying a bali since I was in college. If I teach a child or an adult for that matter, avoiding injuries will be one of the first things I'll try to impart.
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I grew up on various farms, myself.

Of course it could be that a lot of people get into knives when they're older and no one is around to teach them. But even then, by that time they should have sufficient (one would hope) common sense to know that locks are not infallible and can go bad if too much pressure in the wrong direction is applied.

Heck, even today, when I need to do any light stabbing with a knife, I don't just go at it trusting the lock, I'm careful. Even with a Cold Steel knife that I could put through a car door (I guess), I am still careful when cutting open my mail, or a box, or a plastic package. It's a sharp instrument lock or no, being careful just makes sense.
 
RedLynx said:
I grew up on various farms, myself.

Of course it could be that a lot of people get into knives when they're older and no one is around to teach them. But even then, by that time they should have sufficient (one would hope) common sense to know that locks are not infallible and can go bad if too much pressure in the wrong direction is applied.

Heck, even today, when I need to do any light stabbing with a knife, I don't just go at it trusting the lock, I'm careful. Even with a Cold Steel knife that I could put through a car door (I guess), I am still careful when cutting open my mail, or a box, or a plastic package. It's a sharp instrument lock or no, being careful just makes sense.
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Very much so! That's why I don't really like to use knives as worry beads(incessant opening and closing), because I don't look at them as a toy.
 
singularity35 said:
Very much so! That's why I don't really like to use knives as worry beads(incessant opening and closing), because I don't look at them as a toy.
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I occasionally use mine in a worry bead fashion, but only in the closed position as an instrument to finger/twirl in my hand.
 
WOW, I see this argument in almost every forum that deals with knives. I think the answer really lies in whether or not the child is ready for a knife in the first place. Someone who knows the child has to decide if they feel the child is mature enough to understand the dangers as well as the proper use of a knife. You simply cannot say any type of knife is better than another for this situation, every child is different. My first knife was a small two bladed buck and I never cut myself with it, or did anything that would have been considered dangerous. My father taught me well and out of respect for him, I took care of that knife and myself.
 
hangmanshammer said:
WOW, I see this argument in almost every forum that deals with knives. I think the answer really lies in whether or not the child is ready for a knife in the first place. Someone who knows the child has to decide if they feel the child is mature enough to understand the dangers as well as the proper use of a knife. You simply cannot say any type of knife is better than another for this situation, every child is different. My first knife was a small two bladed buck and I never cut myself with it, or did anything that would have been considered dangerous. My father taught me well and out of respect for him, I took care of that knife and myself.
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Right, and then they make a mistake? Would you prefer your child get hurt from a mistake or would you prefer a better measure of safety?
 
Any scout, and most kids, started with a SAK or BSA knife. Always a slip joint. I still have 9 1/2 fingers that prove they're safe. Actually all 10. The only cuts I ever saw were slices, never from a blade snapping shut. Every leader I drilled knife handling and safety into our teenage melons, and it stayed. All scout leaders I know now still do. Just the way scouting is.
Anyone can learn to lose a locking blade with relative ease. It takes more skill to learn to use a non locking blade, as it takes more attention to safety and detail. Like learning to drive a stick before you drive an auto.
 
I think the bolded portion of his post is pretty valid, honestly. If you've decided your child/grandchild is mature enough, AND you instill proper respect/knife safety in them, and they still make a mistake resulting in a cut... that might just be part of life. If you've done your job as the mentor, there is no reason for you to feel guilty when this happens. If you're the primary "knife guy" for said child, I know you'll still feel guilty anyway, it's natural and perhaps unavoidable. I'm just saying that if you make the decision they are mature enough, and you teach them properly, then I think you as the mentor have done your best in this case. But having said all that I can still see preferring that extra safety and I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
He goes on to say after the bolded that one type of knife can't be said to be better, and in general I would agree... I don't think slips are inherently more dangerous or that lockers are inherently more safe, although I agree they ARE a good safety measure, if that makes sense.
 
jimh0220 said:
Any scout, and most kids, started with a SAK or BSA knife. Always a slip joint. I still have 9 1/2 fingers that prove they're safe. Actually all 10. The only cuts I ever saw were slices, never from a blade snapping shut. Every leader I drilled knife handling and safety into our teenage melons, and it stayed. All scout leaders I know now still do. Just the way scouting is.
Anyone can learn to lose a locking blade with relative ease. It takes more skill to learn to use a non locking blade, as it takes more attention to safety and detail. Like learning to drive a stick before you drive an auto.
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Nobody's saying they're not safe with proper use. What I'm saying is a locking folder is no more dangerous than a slipjoint and may even be SAFE-ER in case of a slip.

It takes the same attention and skill to learn to use whatever knife you're using, your premise that when you teach someone knife use with a locking knife, that they automatically get careless or stupid is just a contrived argument.

Scouting is about tradition too. I guess slippies were the rule rather than the exception when the tradition started.

If we followed your logic that people who learned knife use from locking folders don't learn properly, then we'd have all these 9 fingered guys here. ;)

Stupid is as stupid does, whatever kind of knife you learn on.
 
singularity35 said:
Right, and then they make a mistake? Would you prefer your child get hurt from a mistake or would you prefer a better measure of safety?
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Honestly, anyone who thinks that they can accident-proof anyone else by any means, is kidding themselves. This is a dangerous world and most children are far more likely to get hurt doing other things. Both my children fell several times learning to ride a bike, but they learned without training wheels. learning to use a knife is no different safety wise than riding a bike. I am no statistician, but I would bet that the chances of a life altering accident involving a bicycle is considerably higher than one with a knife, are you saying I shouldn't let them ride a bike? Accidents and mistakes happen, we learn from them and life goes on. So, in answer to your question, the only safety there really is with any knife is the brain of the user.
 
It's probably obvious by now but I agree, I don't think it takes more skill to learn to use a slipjoint... but that's just been my personal experience, as someone who enjoys both and started with both at an early age.
 
hangmanshammer said:
Honestly, anyone who thinks that they can accident-proof anyone else by any means, is kidding themselves. This is a dangerous world and most children are far more likely to get hurt doing other things. Both my children fell several times learning to ride a bike, but they learned without training wheels. learning to use a knife is no different safety wise than riding a bike. I am no statistician, but I would bet that the chances of a life altering accident involving a bicycle is considerably higher than one with a knife, are you saying I shouldn't let them ride a bike? Accidents and mistakes happen, we learn from them and life goes on. So, in answer to your question, the only safety there really is with any knife is the brain of the user.
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I agree wholeheartedly, there's no such thing as accident proofing a child but I'd take what precautions I can. I'm back to my safety device argument, will you prefer to let your child learn to drive on a car without seatbelts and airbags over a car that has those features?

Safety device vs. no safety device? If that's a conclusive argument then tools, factory equipment, manufacturing, etc. would be well served to get rid of their safety gear so their workers learn to use the equipment properly?
 
I don't get the argument of it's better to learn on a slipjoint because of an inherent weakness in the design. Putting enough pressure to cause a lock to fail , forcefully stabbing and prying are inherently dangerous actions themselves and the person should be taught better to begin with, slipjoint or not.

It's like giving a kid their first bike and it has one training wheel. "Well son this will make you better because it has a weakness" Although, if you wanted to raise a NASCAR driver it could be beneficial.

A kid trained to be safe with a locking knife will be safe with a slipjoint as long as you make them aware of the limitations of the design. Just as a kid trained to be safe with a semi auto rifle will be safe with a single shot rifle.

Just because a knife has a lock doesn't mean it's tactical or any more of a weapon (maybe to nanny states like those Europe) than others it's just designed to remain open in use. I have some pretty locking knives.


I agree with another poster that it is an argument to continue the use of traditional designs solely because they are traditional not for an operational advantage. A child must be mature and learn through good training. The type doesn't matter so much
 
My point is simply, you can only teach so much, life teaches more. Accidents happen, we learn from them and move on. I don't think a locking knife vs a friction folder, vs a slip joint vs a fixed blade is a valid argument for safety, misusing any of them can result in harm. Yes, I do see a lock as a safety mechanism, to a point, but I don't think that it is a necessary one if you teach/mentor the child properly. If I was that worried about a knife closing on my child's fingers, I would dull the blade nearest the hilt so that it couldn't cut the index finger if it did close (I certainly am not that worried). I prefer to think, and so far both of my children have proven me to be correct, that teaching them proper knife handling and use is far more valuable than any safety on any knife can offer. All those safeties in this world have been created because accidents can and will happen, so I am certainly not saying that we should get rid of safety equipment, but in most cases, user responsibility far outweighs any safety device in capability.
 
hangmanshammer said:
My point is simply, you can only teach so much, life teaches more. Accidents happen, we learn from them and move on. I don't think a locking knife vs a friction folder, vs a slip joint vs a fixed blade is a valid argument for safety, misusing any of them can result in harm. Yes, I do see a lock as a safety mechanism, to a point, but I don't think that it is a necessary one if you teach/mentor the child properly. If I was that worried about a knife closing on my child's fingers, I would dull the blade nearest the hilt so that it couldn't cut the index finger if it did close (I certainly am not that worried). I prefer to think, and so far both of my children have proven me to be correct, that teaching them proper knife handling and use is far more valuable than any safety on any knife can offer. All those safeties in this world have been created because accidents can and will happen, so I am certainly not saying that we should get rid of safety equipment, but in most cases, user responsibility far outweighs any safety device in capability.
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How necessary are seatbelts and airbags to a driver that has been taught properly?
 
singularity35 said:
How necessary are seatbelts and airbags to a driver that has been taught properly?
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very, because of the lack of training of the OTHER drivers on the road. This is an apples to oranges argument, a knife is a one-person at a time tool, cars on the road have too many other variables to be considered in the same argument
 
hangmanshammer said:
very, because of the lack of training of the OTHER drivers on the road. This is an apples to oranges argument, a knife is a one-person at a time tool, cars on the road have too many other variables to be considered in the same argument
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Hmm, that's a good point, and one I hadn't considered earlier when comparing the arguments. Thanks for bringing it up.
 
hangmanshammer said:
very, because of the lack of training of the OTHER drivers on the road. This is an apples to oranges argument, a knife is a one-person at a time tool, cars on the road have too many other variables to be considered in the same argument
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As mentioned it is a good point but don't good drivers make a mistake? Seatbelts and airbags don't just protect the driver from other drivers but also from their own mistakes. Or don't airbags deploy when it's the driver's own fault?

It is only an apples vs. oranges when the devices only protect from other drivers' carelessness or mistakes. It is an apples to apples when the devices protect the operator from their own mistakes.

OTOH, it may still even be an apple to apples in that they serve to make the equipment safer to operate, assuming of course, that it is operated with common sense.

Then there's that manufacturing equipment thing. If it makes a better trained operator to train on equipment with no safety devices, why have them at all? The answer is because accidents happen no matter how well trained and/or operated properly the machines are. Same with knives. If the lock even serves to prevent cuts 4 times out of every 10 slips, when the slippie has no protection in the 10 slips, why nix the extra protection?
 
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chris0827 said:
Sounds dangerously similar to the "everyone gets a trophy" mindset... I played sports and never got a trophy because I sucked- I don't want my kids to feel bad like that so now everyone gets a trophy... Instead of kids learning how to do things well and finding the ONE or TWO things they are really good at, we make kids believe they are good at EVERYTHING and setting them up to learn ever HARDER lessons in the real world. I digress though...

First knife should be a slipjoint. Mine was and I cut myself. Once. I may carry a locking folder now most days- but I feel just as capable and safe with a slipjoint because I know how to use a knife and appreciate the fact that it can hurt me. I learned my lesson young (when things heal fast). :D
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I don't get it. What's the argument here? I don't care if my baby girl wins unwarranted trophies. I don't want her to cut her fingers. Somehow it sounds like you are disagreeing with me, but I don't understand how.

Ben Franklin (in the myth) learned about electricity by flying a kite with a key tied to it. I'm not going to teach my daughter the same lesson by handing her a paper clip and instructing her to play with the outlet. She can learn from a book just fine.

To the OP, my suspicion is that most of these people don't have kids. If you've read this far, it's just a bunch if dudes on the internet. None of them have a stake in your 11 year old's fingers. Get him a locking knife. Like a big lock. Like a roto-lock.
 
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