Safety of non-locking folders like Boy Scout & SAK

As mentioned it is a good point but don't good drivers make a mistake? Seatbelts and airbags don't just protect the driver from other drivers but also from their own mistakes. Or don't airbags deploy when it's the driver's own fault?
certainly, it can happen, but that doesn't necessarily mean that those safety features will work every time either. Let's put it in another perspective, you hand someone a gun, safety on, are you going to tell them to point it at you? No, of course you wouldn't, because you don't really trust the safety, correct? So, why on earth would you trust a safety such as a lock on a knife to be any different?
 
To the Op, the choice is yours, you know the child, we don't. Only you can decide the maturity level and the amount of protection you want for said child.
 
I don't get it. What's the argument here? I don't care if my baby girl wins unwarranted trophies. I don't want her to cut her fingers. Somehow it sounds like you are disagreeing with me, but I don't understand how.

Ben Franklin (in the myth) learned about electricity by flying a kite with a key tied to it. I'm not going to teach my daughter the same lesson by handing her a paper clip and instructing her to play with the outlet. She can learn from a book just fine.

To the OP, my suspicion is that most of these people don't have kids. If you've read this far, it's just a bunch if dudes on the internet. None of them have a stake in your 11 year old's fingers. Get him a locking knife. Like a big lock. Like a roto-lock.


I don't get it either, I think the argument is if I want my son to be safe when he carries I should get him a 1911 with a 2 lb trigger, pinned grip safety and sketchy manual safety.
 
certainly, it can happen, but that doesn't necessarily mean that those safety features will work every time either.

I'm not saying that they are fail safes. All I'm saying is that the devices are there and designed to make the equipement safer when they work. Differentiated by equipment with no safety devices which will not have them 100 percent of the time.

It's like bulletproof vests for soldiers. It may not protect them or it may, still they prefer the extra measure of protection.

The safety devices on a folder may not work 100 percent of the time but the slip joints have no locks 100 percent of the time.


Let's put it in another perspective, you hand someone a gun, safety on, are you going to tell them to point it at you? No, of course you wouldn't, because you don't really trust the safety, correct? So, why on earth would you trust a safety such as a lock on a knife to be any different?

Now that's the apples to oranges analogy. All guns have safety mechanisms(well, revolvers).

So if you were to have a loaded gun pointed at you and the trigger pulled, which one would you choose? 1911 with safety engaged or a wheelgun?

I really wouldn't want a gun pointed at me but if a gun was pointed at me at all, I'd prefer one with safety engaged(which may or may not fire when the trigger is pulled) rather than one with the safety disengaged(which will fire assuming it's in good working order).
 
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Point taken, and I am sure we can agree that this would be an on-going argument for many years to come. That said, good night, work comes too early....
 
I think we're kinda losing sight here... In general, I can see how the OP may want to have added protective measures for his small child's fingers. I don't think anyone can disagree with this on a basic level. A locking knife is absolutely just fine for teaching proper knife safety (while not relying on the lock to save you) just as a slipjoint is.

In the end, get a knife that you feel is safe enough for your child, and that child's fingers. Nothing wrong with that.
 
I think we're kinda losing sight here... In general, I can see how the OP may want to have added protective measures for his small child's fingers. I don't think anyone can disagree with this on a basic level. A locking knife is absolutely just fine for teaching proper knife safety (while not relying on the lock to save you) just as a slipjoint is.

In the end, get a knife that you feel is safe enough for your child, and that child's fingers. Nothing wrong with that.

Ahh, thanks for bringing the focus back. :)
 
I agree, a non-locking SAK is the perfect Scout knife. Learn to use a knife properly:
how to open, safely close, hold when using, etc. and you won't get cut. But if he does
he'll have learned a lesson about knife safety. I'm 70 and carry two knives and SAK
Deluxe Tinker in a belt pouch and a Kershaw plain blade Drone in my pocket for
heavier cutting ((it's a liner lock). I'v seen every type of lock fail. They are not
a safefy guarantee. As for being a defense weapon- forget it! Unless he has
extensive training in martial arts including knife fighting, he's much more likely
to end the victim of his own knife. Not to mention that he will still be charged with
wielding a weapon in a fight. Not good. Stick with the SAK. It's a great knife.

If you must have a lock blade knife, Wenger locking blade knives of that
size and smaller can still be found on ebay for very little money. although i
would still advise to just stick with a non-locking version.

Also, search ebay for scout knives. They have hundreds, some very reasonable, some not.
But it gives you more choices. I would also consider the Marble's Workman from SMKW.
Inexpensive, yet quite good.

At his age, he should learn to properly use a pocket knife and not to rely on gimmicks to
he his fingers safe.

RichS
 
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I'm kinda thinking about cleaning my old knife up and mirror polishing the edge for fun. Who knows what kind of god awful steel it is though.
 
I have a real mixed mind on this issue myself. I have to remember that I am a construction worker with 40 years of job site work. I am in an outside environment a lot where a good work knife is a necessary tool, and I am in a business that one expects to see working sized knives at the ready. As a kid, I was an active kiddo that camped, canoed, Boy Scouted, hunted, hiked, and started all of that at a young age. Raised in South Texas, I had a BSA knife in my pocket at 5 that taken away for cutting something I shouldn't have, then returned permanently to me at 6.

I didn't regularly carry a knife to school until my Dad was sure I wouldn't pull it out during the day for any reason, at about 13. At that time I was already an experienced camper and hiker, and used my knife for all manner of things. Starting in construction for a summer at the age of 16, I was never without a knife in my pocket after that since I started using it a lot for work. It stayed in my pocket all through high school without any incident.

Today's kids don't have that kind of freedom, nor do they have the opportunity to carry and use a knife like I did. Sure, it would be nice to have a "Rockwell Moment" of a wide eyed kid at the foot of Grandpa's evening chair giving a child a knife while they enjoyed the warmth of a nice fire. It would be nice to think a youngster would be around other men that were more outdoorsy that worked a lot with their hands (not at keyboards) making things. Or hunting, fishing, etc.

It isn't that way now for most boys. To my absolute, complete horror and unbounding disappointment, my nephew isn't really concerned about pocket knives one way or another. He sees a lot of downside; although he has his own Totin' Chip, he knows that under certain circumstances he could be in more trouble than he could get out of if he pulled out his knife to cut up an apple. Or cut a piece of string or open a package. So he hasn't formed an understanding of how handing a knife can be. He understands the responsibility of carrying a knife, and his understanding that in carrying one you incur a lot downside, just like carrying a weapon. So he makes his life easier and doesn't carry a knife unless he is camping or doing other BSA activities that he encounters on his way to Eagle.

He sees his SAK "Forester" as a camp tool, and takes it camping with him when he goes once a month or so. Since he can't figure out where he could carry the slipjoint I bought him without raising an eyebrow or two, he doesn't carry it.

All his pals are the same way. A bunch of tow headed 12, and 13 year olds, they don't ever build the familiarity of with the knife as a tool that I already had years before them. They may never. (Man it pains me to think of that...)

So in the few times that he gets the knife out a year for some good use, do we leave on the safety device that could help protect him in case he makes mistake, misjudges, or just has and accident of some sort that a 13 year old could make? Would that be wise? Or should we make sure conforms to what some would think is right and only use a knife without a lock so he will learn valuable lessons when injured. I would hate to see him without a finger, or worse, because he needed to be "taught right".

"Yessir... that boy over there missing a finger is mine. He did that to his own stupid self, but I'll bet he never does that again!" doesn't prove much. I don't know that some of today's kids have much of a chance to learn proficiency with knives and to build complete confidence in their use. Our culture has changed so much, and kids just don't need a good knife in their pockets anymore so they don't have them. Nor do their fathers.

On the other hand, when I almost amputated my own finger with my BSA knife, my Dad was really very pleased. I was cutting a divot out of a board to make a hole for my fire bow, and in my 8 year old hands, the knife slipped and I clamped it shut on my finger. I had cut down to the bone and nicked a tendon, which bled a ton and required a lot of medical attention. Dad was really pleased because the painful lessons we learn are the ones we remember, so since I had no permanent damage in the end, he felt it was a win for all. At 58, that scar is still easy to see. I am lucky I didn't remove my finger.

So I don't know... I think some kids would respond better to knives with locks than others. I just don't think we should judge today's kids by yesterday's standards. ESPECIALLY not our romanticized memories of "the way things used to be". Maybe it should be a case by case thing, with the parents judging each kid individually...

Robert
 
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There are a lot of voices on this topic. For clarity, I think it boils down to one question: is it dangerous?

Certainly, you would never allow your boy to experiment with something dangerous for the sake of learning a lesson. The question is where do you draw the dangerous line.

Is a slip joint life threatening? Probably not. Will he cut himself? Probably yes.

I'm a grown ass man. I cut myself bad with a stockman and again with and a Sodbuster. Odds are, your 11 y.o. will cut himself.


I call that dangerous.

Look at it another way - Would your level headed, unimpassioned-about-knives wife allow your son to play with a slip joint that will most likely cut him? Mine wouldn't.

Edit: what the hell does a Swiss company have to do with the Boy Scouts of America anyway?!

Edit #2: Will he cut himself? Yes, most likely. Do you want that?
 
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I cut myself pretty bad with my first knife - slipjoint (girlscout knife, actually - like a boyscout knife by slightly smaller and with green scales.)
Anyway, it had nothing to to with the lock and everything to do with handling. Probably needed a stitch or 2 - I still have the scar (37 years later) - but my folks didn't want to bother with a doctor. Never did THAT again.

9 year old daughter was whittling with my Executive SAK this weekend. She trimmed her knuckles a bit. Again, it was bad form, and not the joint.
She learned her lesson. Used a couple band-aids, but no stitches needed. Actually, I think she was proud.
I love my locking knives, but still think a slipjoint is the way to start.
 
First knife I purchased for my nephew at age 12 was a Victorinox Hiker. Didn't even think twice about it. I grew up starting with an SAK, never cut myself, don't see why he can't do the same.

When I see jackasses on youtube abusing folding knives in their "rough use" videos, I wonder why they ever thought of doing those things in the first place. My guess is they've never used a slip joint before. Times have changed, I guess.
 
When you give your 11 year-old a slip joint, he will cut himself. When he cuts himself, he will resent you. When he resents you, he will send you to a nursing home in your old age. When you're in a nursing home, you will be abused by male nurses.

Don't be abused by male nurses.
 
My .02 is to go with the SAK for 2 reason.
1) It's better to have the blade fold in with less force, then slip while stabbing with more force. It'll hurt either way, but it'll be worse with more force.
2) I have never had a slip joint open in my pocket. I can't say the same the same for locking knives with their weaker detent.

Incidentally, Victorinox makes several BSA models. My own experience is unless it's for a survival situation, scissors and the awl are worth their weight in gold.
http://www.victorinox.com/us/catego...f-America/1009?f=category&v=1/100/1009&m=add&
 
When you give your 11 year old a "tacticool" liner lock, he'll wave it around and try to abuse it "proving" his is the best; when that is "proven" untrue, he will have social anxiety issues and not 'fit in with the other kids'. When he "doesn't fit in" he'll become sullen, unruly & "dangerous", and end up with you on an episode of "Dr. Phil", who will put closeups on you and state obvious pablum. Don't be on "Dr Phil"; get him a SAK.
 
I don't get it. What's the argument here? I don't care if my baby girl wins unwarranted trophies. I don't want her to cut her fingers. Somehow it sounds like you are disagreeing with me, but I don't understand how.

Ben Franklin (in the myth) learned about electricity by flying a kite with a key tied to it. I'm not going to teach my daughter the same lesson by handing her a paper clip and instructing her to play with the outlet. She can learn from a book just fine.

To the OP, my suspicion is that most of these people don't have kids. If you've read this far, it's just a bunch if dudes on the internet. None of them have a stake in your 11 year old's fingers. Get him a locking knife. Like a big lock. Like a roto-lock.
nobody WANTS to see their child (or yours) get hurt, but it's tough to argue that sometimes the best and most lasting lessons are learned the hard way.
 
There are a lot of voices on this topic. For clarity, I think it boils down to one question: is it dangerous?

Certainly, you would never allow your boy to experiment with something dangerous for the sake of learning a lesson. The question is where do you draw the dangerous line.

Is a slip joint life threatening? Probably not. Will he cut himself? Probably yes.

I'm a grown ass man. I cut myself bad with a stockman and again with and a Sodbuster. Odds are, your 11 y.o. will cut himself.


I call that dangerous.

Look at it another way - Would your level headed, unimpassioned-about-knives wife allow your son to play with a slip joint that will most likely cut him? Mine wouldn't.

Edit: what the hell does a Swiss company have to do with the Boy Scouts of America anyway?!

Edit #2: Will he cut himself? Yes, most likely. Do you want that?
Several million scouts for over 100 years have learned with a slip joint. Many learn in Cub Scouts when they are 7-8 years old and a SUBSTANTIAL majority all manage to make through with all their fingers and toes. If your child isn't capable of handling a knife that's your call, but the style of knife isn't the issue- the issue is maturity, training and responsibility- which ultimately come from Mom and Dad (by example).
 
Sounds dangerously similar to the "everyone gets a trophy" mindset... I played sports and never got a trophy because I sucked- I don't want my kids to feel bad like that so now everyone gets a trophy... Instead of kids learning how to do things well and finding the ONE or TWO things they are really good at, we make kids believe they are good at EVERYTHING and setting them up to learn ever HARDER lessons in the real world. I digress though...

First knife should be a slipjoint. Mine was and I cut myself. Once. I may carry a locking folder now most days- but I feel just as capable and safe with a slipjoint because I know how to use a knife and appreciate the fact that it can hurt me. I learned my lesson young (when things heal fast). :D

^^This post has been marked as the correct answer.
 
I was given a slip joint in Third Grade. But there were harldly any alternatives for a "pocket knife" to be part of your school gear.

However, if you are really good at driving/defensive driving, no seat belts? Isn't that a crutch? Like fire extinguisers and bike helmets? Guards on fixed-blades? Life insurance (I mean if you are sharp, you have saved enough $$, right?) Survival kits? Athletic cups for the slow-of-reflex? Tooth guards?

The most common woods tool accident in Scouting is "knife closed on fingers." A "lock" does not preclude proper instruction.
 
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