Sanrenmu 7010 vs CRKT Drifter

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LastRodeo said:
The statement was that they had not lost a challenge in court. I requested evidence of the court case. Evidence to support claims was requested throughout this thread.

If there is no court case, the statement "The patent holder has never prevailed when challenged in court" would also be true.

I really don't have a dog in this fight, I just have a problem with the "facts" of some statements.

It sounds like you have a history with davek14, that I have no interest in getting in the middle of.
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You started an evidence pissing contest but you are the only one pissing. Again, look up what has already been covered over and over again. You clearly don't want tp do that and would rather argue over scraps. Until there is some new discussion worthy of having on this subject I'll be bowing out of this thread.
 
LastRodeo said:
Just for fun, I have to challenge this. To my knowledge, to have lost in court in a patent dispute, a company would have to have "committed the crime". So a maker would have had to have used the Axis lock on one of their knives and been sued or it had never been challenged in court.

Evidence has been required previously in this thread, so evidence of the lost court challenge is being requested.
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Nobody owes you proof of anything. Do you realize how absurd your request is? You're saying you'll believe the existence of something when I can prove that something else doesn't exist that could only happen in the absence of the first thing. Do you see what a logical fail that is?

Look around you. The lack of an unlicensed Axis Lock on a legit manufacturers knife model should provide ample proof of the likely current validity of the McHenry/Williams patent. Way more than proof of a plaintiffs victory in court when the vast majority of IP infringement cases are settled out of court. I have significant circumstantial evidence to support my opinion. What do you have to support yours?

Do your own homework. There's been a lot of research done here and at the official BM forums. All you need is Google-Fu. I don't have time to do it for you.

On the bright side, eventually you won't be wrong and it won't take a long time. As I recall, the latest validity date for the Axis Lock was August or September of this year. Hang in there!:thumbsup:
 
LastRodeo said:
On last thing, the fact that another legitimate maker is not making an exact copy of the Axis lock is not evidence of anything.

Here is a business lesson. A company wants to market their product as better than their competitors. It's lock is stronger, safer, etc.

When you make an exact copy, the only way to get market share is to be cheaper. You cut your price, your competition has to cut their price to get back lost market share. Prices and profits keep circling downward.

It is better business to invent a "ball lock" than to copy the Axis lock.

Another way to keep prices high is if all the competitors enforse MAP pricing. They can't conspire to do that though, as collusion laws exist.
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According to your business lesson, Ganzo knife shouldn't exist. Are you an accredited university? :p
 
I don't understand why you think I have proof to provide. A statement was made (not by me) "the best evidence of it still being in effect to some degree is the LACK of Axis Locks on legit knife makers and no lost challenges in courts"

If a court case was lost, that is evidence. If a court case never happened, that is not evidence of anything. That is lack of evidence, to either side of the argument.

I explained why other legitimate knifemakers would have no desire to make a copy of the Axis lock.
Again, that is not evidence one way or another about the validity of a patent.

My statements were specifically directed to the statement regarding "evidence" whether a patent had expired. No more, no less.
 
I'm not going to throw around the usual insults about "reading comprehension".....

But I'm done here.
 
And don't get me wrong. I love Benchmade and would never recommend someone buy a Ganzo or Sanrenmu over a Benchmade.

Here is my favorite.

c11a5a36-0beb-46e9-8fae-cf7a499f2840_zps8p7yiovo.jpg
 
LastRodeo said:
I'm not going to throw around the usual insults about "reading comprehension".....

But I'm done here.
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Aaaaaand...this is how it usually ends. Thanks for joining the discussion and I truly wish you the best.
 
Weren't we talking about the Sanrenmu 7010. Seems all roads lead to Ganzo. The similarities in the ball bearing lock and the axis lock were originally brought up to make the point that the ball bearing lock was similar to the axis lock just as the Sanrenmu 7010 is similar to the Sebenza and that the similarities did not constitute patent infringement or IP theft in either case.

Craytab, my quoting the constitution to make the point that I believe that many times patent law is abused and does not support the original intent of the law does not make me disrespectful or ignorant. Neither does holding the opinion that the Sanrenmu is hardly a clone of a Sebenza make me a "known counterfeit supporter. Take a deep breath.

On page nine of this thread many were saying that nine pages on an $8 knife is ridiculous. Let's shoot for double that. Then, when we've done 18 pages let's see how many were about the SRM 7010 or the CRKT Drifter.
 
davek14 said:
Weren't we talking about the Sanrenmu 7010. Seems all roads lead to Ganzo. The similarities in the ball bearing lock and the axis lock were originally brought up to make the point that the ball bearing lock was similar to the axis lock just as the Sanrenmu 7010 is similar to the Sebenza and that the similarities did not constitute patent infringement or IP theft in either case.

Craytab, my quoting the constitution to make the point that I believe that many times patent law is abused and does not support the original intent of the law does not make me disrespectful or ignorant. Neither does holding the opinion that the Sanrenmu is hardly a clone of a Sebenza make me a "known counterfeit supporter. Take a deep breath.

On page nine of this thread many were saying that nine pages on an $8 knife is ridiculous. Let's shoot for double that. Then, when we've done 18 pages let's see how many were about the SRM 7010 or the CRKT Drifter.
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Nah, let's not. I think this has been ample pages of logical fails and semi-trolling. It looks like the OP has moved on to the fountain pen enthusiast forum anyway. I think we've said all we can say about either knife and the rest is rationalization anyway.

Everyone use your sharp, stabby things in good health...and I hope you can afford more than $8 for a knife. Maybe try "GoFundMe"?
 
Hackenslash said:
Nah, let's not. I think this has been ample pages of logical fails and semi-trolling. It looks like the OP has moved on to the fountain pen enthusiast forum anyway. I think we've said all we can say about either knife and the rest is rationalization anyway.

Everyone use your sharp, stabby things in good health...and I hope you can afford more than $8 for a knife. Maybe try "GoFundMe"?
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OP here; haven't moved on quite yet but I did find the information for which I was looking on posts 6,19,36,40,69,86,142,147,165,166 and 171.

Thanks.
 
Last edited:
I made a point a few pages back which is largely ignored.

There is one side to this argument who declares that any business that copies something is a thief and in particular the Chinese. The other side?

They are ALL thieves, every one. Each builds on the innovation of it's predecessors. Each copies the lines and features of the competition. Most of the knifemaking world of folders copies the Michael Walker linerlock. Not one I am aware of bothers to send him a dollar a year for his invention.

Of course, it's not really new, Camillus had one on the two blade electricians GI knife. How far back does that go? If you bother to look into knife design much of what we enjoy now has been around 50-100 years.

Some can claim they stand on higher moral grounds but it's usually internet chest thumping. This is where they think they can establish their place in a social pecking order - but real point of the forum is to discuss the knives - not the ego of the owners.

If anything one of the more exciting things in knives of late is Chinese manufacture, especially their original designs. If some choose to ignore or boycott them - so be it. Cheap imports have always been a significant force on the American market, after all - since Sheffield was the main maker of knives used here. They made most of the Bowies now highly valued in collections.

As just one example of IP - just what knife did the Kabar copy? Because they did, and that knife preceded it by about 40 years.

The Marbles hunters knife.

I guess the Marines bought from thieves and forced our brave fighting men to use them, too. Or, just maybe, there is no IP unless it is protected by patent and copyright. Lacking that, tough. It's a free market. Here and in China.
 
tirod3 said:
I made a point a few pages back which is largely ignored.

There is one side to this argument who declares that any business that copies something is a thief and in particular the Chinese. The other side?

They are ALL thieves, every one. Each builds on the innovation of it's predecessors. Each copies the lines and features of the competition. Most of the knifemaking world of folders copies the Michael Walker linerlock. Not one I am aware of bothers to send him a dollar a year for his invention.

Of course, it's not really new, Camillus had one on the two blade electricians GI knife. How far back does that go? If you bother to look into knife design much of what we enjoy now has been around 50-100 years.

Some can claim they stand on higher moral grounds but it's usually internet chest thumping. This is where they think they can establish their place in a social pecking order - but real point of the forum is to discuss the knives - not the ego of the owners.

If anything one of the more exciting things in knives of late is Chinese manufacture, especially their original designs. If some choose to ignore or boycott them - so be it. Cheap imports have always been a significant force on the American market, after all - since Sheffield was the main maker of knives used here. They made most of the Bowies now highly valued in collections.

As just one example of IP - just what knife did the Kabar copy? Because they did, and that knife preceded it by about 40 years.

The Marbles hunters knife.

I guess the Marines bought from thieves and forced our brave fighting men to use them, too. Or, just maybe, there is no IP unless it is protected by patent and copyright. Lacking that, tough. It's a free market. Here and in China.
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In general when people are talking thieves we're talking about lifting of designs and mechanisms either currently trademarked or patented. It's important for those patients to end so the industry can "stand on the shoulders of giants" and move forward. There is a balance rewarding people and companies for their innovations and preventing an industry from moving forward because of them. It's kinda out of whack right now and we do as a nation and as a world rethink patient law preferably before any more tech consolidation happens. Then there's trademarks that essentially extend patients see Spyderco and Emerson that just need to go away.

There is a conversation to be had here I'm just not sure that a message board about knives is the appropriate place.
 
davek14 said:
Weren't we talking about the Sanrenmu 7010. Seems all roads lead to Ganzo. The similarities in the ball bearing lock and the axis lock were originally brought up to make the point that the ball bearing lock was similar to the axis lock just as the Sanrenmu 7010 is similar to the Sebenza and that the similarities did not constitute patent infringement or IP theft in either case.

Craytab, my quoting the constitution to make the point that I believe that many times patent law is abused and does not support the original intent of the law does not make me disrespectful or ignorant. Neither does holding the opinion that the Sanrenmu is hardly a clone of a Sebenza make me a "known counterfeit supporter. Take a deep breath.

On page nine of this thread many were saying that nine pages on an $8 knife is ridiculous. Let's shoot for double that. Then, when we've done 18 pages let's see how many were about the SRM 7010 or the CRKT Drifter.
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Your post history proves your stance on counterfeits. It's not your constitution, don't quote it.
 
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