Sanrenmu

[tradja]

It says you're not willing to spend exorbitant amounts of money for something else that suits just as well.

Is $15 really an exorbitant amount to pay for a real CRKT vs. the $7 for a fake CRKT?

I can respect this sentiment. However, there seems to be no actual violation of intellectual property. There is a very cut and dried method for creative entities to declare intellectual property. If those entities cannot or will not take advantage of this system, nobody else is obligated to do so.

This leaves individuals to arbitrarily take up the cause of IP protection on behalf of knife manufacturers who cannot or will not do it themselves. All fine and dandy, but don't ask me to abide by your rule of where the line is drawn.

I have a hard time believing that the $250 billion of lost annual revenue that Chinese counterfeiters cost American companies is because those companies are too lazy to protect their patents, trademarks, and copyrights. For example, the last time I was in Bangkok, I could buy Photoshop for $2. The fake was not available for $2 because Adobe failed to "declare" it. It was avaialable for $2 because a counterfeiter counterfeited it.

Don't think that I'm on too high a horse here -- I would not buy counterfeit medicine, for example, but I am tremendously relieved that many generics are available. I would not be drawn by the "prestige" of brand-name meds.

 

[wildjim]

It says you're not willing to spend exorbitant amounts of money for something else that suits just as well.

Is $15 really an exorbitant amount to pay for a real CRKT vs. the $7 for a fake CRKT?



I have a hard time believing that the $250 billion of lost annual revenue that Chinese counterfeiters cost American companies is because those companies are too lazy to protect their patents, trademarks, and copyrights. For example, the last time I was in Bangkok, I could buy Photoshop for $2. The fake was not available for $2 because Adobe failed to "declare" it. It was avaialable for $2 because a counterfeiter counterfeited it.

Don't think that I'm on too high a horse here -- I would not buy counterfeit medicine, for example, but I am tremendously relieved that many generics are available. I would not be drawn by the "prestige" of brand-name meds.

Adobe Photoshop is not created by them but copied as are movies and music and that is a criminal offence here in the USA.

As I am not the world police and could not do anything about it as its not my property I have no right of ownership and therefore no right of complaint.

This not the same as manufacturing a similar design legal replica of a common design item.

 

[ajpalda]

What boggles my mind is how Sanrenmu can manufacture a knife of that quality of materials and workmanship and still make a profit?

It seems someone is charging way too much and another not enough?

Prices based on name prestige VS Dumping at or below cost to put others out of business?.

There is a middle ground to be found in some of the more mainstream manufacturers.

 

[Reeek]

What boggles my mind is how Sanrenmu can manufacture a knife of that quality of materials and workmanship and still make a profit?

It seems someone is charging way too much and another not enough?

Sweat shop?

 

[tradja]

Adobe Photoshop is not created by them but copied as are movies and music and that is a criminal offence here in the USA.

As I am not the world police and could not do anything about it as its not my property I have no right of ownership and therefore no right of complaint.

This not the same as manufacturing a similar design legal replica of a common design item.

Good points. And you're right; Photoshop is not knives.

However, both are unauthorized reproductions of a design. The medium in unimportant.

I am not the world police either but I am responsible for where and to whom I send my dollars.

 

[wildjim]

Anybody know if Chis Reeve collects royalties for his design of the Frame Lock which many knife manufacturers use?

That is a great idea and no one can take that away from Chris Reeve.

I am hijaaking my own thread ; )

 

[tradja]

Anybody know if Chis Reeve collects royalties for his design of the Frame Lock which many knife manufacturers use?

That is a great idea and no one can take that away from Chris Reeve.

I am hijaaking my own thread ; )

It's not really a hijack (yet), since this is a relevant analogy as we explore these designs and the questions they raise.

Good question: Did Chris Reeve even patent the framelock?

• Several manufacturers paid royalties to Mike Walker regarding the liner lock, at least until his patent expired. Spyderco still credits him for this design.
• Spyderco pays (and credits) Emerson for the Wave feature.
• Boker licensed the Spyderhole for a fancy folder they made a few years back.
• AFAIK, Benchmade used the round hole on the original AFCK and Eclipse with Spyderco's permission.

As a matter of law, I don't know. I'm not an intellectual property law attorney. (shecky, I've read some of your older writing on the topic and it comes across as informed and well-reasoned).

I guess it boils down to the fact that I know a Chinese rip-off when I see one, and that's just not my style. Ultimately, I vote with my wallet.

 

[wildjim]

I believe the loyalty to contemporary knife makers is a ancient history ignorant fools notion as the knife is an ancient tool that belongs to everyone's past. The Chinese go back pretty far in the ancient history of knife making and are masters of the art. That fact is enough in my opinion for them to stake a claim in the current knife market. I am not ashamed to own a Chinese made knife rather the contrary I am proud. My Sanrenmu knives do what I need a knife to do and more with style and quality workmanship.

 

[ElectrikHellfire]

It says you're not willing to spend exorbitant amounts of money for something else that suits just as well.

Well said. IMO If you are carrying an expensive knife around for the purpose of being seen and impressing people then what that says about you is far more telling than buying a Chinese copy that is well put together and functions for a fraction of the price. I wouldn't be casting stones.

 

[shecky]

Is $15 really an exorbitant amount to pay for a real CRKT vs. the $7 for a fake CRKT?

I was comparing the Sanrenmu with the Sebenza.

I have a hard time believing that the $250 billion of lost annual revenue that Chinese counterfeiters cost American companies is because those companies are too lazy to protect their patents, trademarks, and copyrights. For example, the last time I was in Bangkok, I could buy Photoshop for $2. The fake was not available for $2 because Adobe failed to "declare" it. It was avaialable for $2 because a counterfeiter counterfeited it.

Don't think that I'm on too high a horse here -- I would not buy counterfeit medicine, for example, but I am tremendously relieved that many generics are available. I would not be drawn by the "prestige" of brand-name meds.

You are confusing the presumably counterfeit CKRT branded knife with the Sanrenmu. It's not clear that they have anything to do with each other.


Regarding cost, I suspect that Sanrenmu is not selling at a loss. Even if they were, why would this be of anyone's concern? They are the ones responsible for their own business model. If they are not concerned with turning a profit, all the better for the consumer.

CRK certainly sells on reputation. That is a good business model for the company, allowing for products that command high prices. The difference between a $10 Sanrenmu and a $300 Sebenza is less tangible than can be accounted for by the difference in materials and finish alone. They sell to folks who want more than just a well make knife, something that can be had for very little money. They are good at servicing that market, and more power to them.

 

[kungfucowboy]

i gotta say that pictures with no scale for refernce make these sanrenmu knives look a lot more like others than they do IRL. take for example the one you call a "copy" of the buck-strider it's width is about the same as my middle finger, really if you take a look side by side you wouldn't think they are copies. if you take a look at the sizes listed on SRMs website and compare them to the knives you say they are "fakes" of there is a substantial size difference. If you say the designs are too derivative of other more famous brands or you dislike that they use a design so similar to others and won't buy them is one thing but, to put them in the same category as the companies that use fake names/logos/and model number is not fair at all.



edited to clarify: My view of a copy is something that is made to fool people into thinking it's something else or it is exactly the same in design and size (though usually not in quality of materials or workmanship)

 

[kungfucowboy]

here is an example
sebenza:
blade length 75mm
blade thickness 3.175mm
overall length 175mm

710
blade length: 70mm
overall length: 165mm
blade thickness 2.4 mm

so the blade is 7% shorter, overall 6% shorter and the blade is about 25% thinner, that's a pretty decent difference and definitely enough to over come and patent issues even if it was patented.

 

[wildjim]

here is an example
sebenza:
blade length 75mm
blade thickness 3.175mm
overall length 175mm

710
blade length: 70mm
overall length: 165mm
blade thickness 2.4 mm

so the blade is 7% shorter, overall 6% shorter and the blade is about 25% thinner, that's a pretty decent difference and definitely enough to over come and patent issues even if it was patented.

Too bad the price difference from the low end is not just 38% ; )

 

[skybone]

the way I see this, Sebenza is hand finished by a few people,each an "expert" at his or her aspect of the production, The sanrenmu is finished by millions with nothing else to do. I still want one! I might reverse-engineer this thing on them . Imagine that! What is the price of rice in China? Anyone have a link = to a legitimate supplier? How do you check for counterfeit? Heh! Heh!

 

[Slim to None]

It says you're not willing to spend exorbitant amounts of money for something else that suits just as well.

I assume then, that you live in a tent, eat only dog food, use only public transportation, and are posting from a public library? After all, homes, decent food, cars, and computers are very expensive. A tent keeps the rain off just as well/dog food nourishes just as much/etc.

Rationalize it any way you like, these are cheaply made knockoffs of better designs. Carry them if you like, but walking around with a smug sense of superiority because "it works just as well as a real one, but only cost 4 bucks at the gas station" is a gaucherie. A box cutter or sharp rock will still cut. That doesn't make it "better" than a sebenza.

A talented and driven man spent his entire career coming up with ways to refine and perfect his vision and execution of the best possible pocket knife, with the Sebenza as a result. Some chinese state-educated engineer spent about 45 minutes drafting a quickly and cheaply made direct copy, with the expensive parts (pivot bushing?) deleted.

Collecting and using knives isn't a spreadsheet cost/benefit operation for many of the people here, just as guitars, cars, pens, watches, etc aren't. Intangibles count.

 

[rookie4real]

I could be careless if someone buys/uses cheap knives. 99,9% of the time you get what you pay for. So if you'r pleased with a crappy knife that cost hundred times less, good for you. As for me, I would rather have a cheap real G-shock than a fake Rolex.

 

[ElectrikHellfire]

Just speaking for myself, I don't intend to replace any of my more expensive EDC knives with an SRM. I guess my purchase is more of a novelty item.

 

[Phil Elmore]

So, Shecky, you don't believe there's any such thing as intellectual property?

 

[shecky]

I assume then, that you live in a tent, eat only dog food, use only public transportation, and are posting from a public library?

You know what happens when you assume, don't you?

So, Shecky, you don't believe there's any such thing as intellectual property?

Of course there is. However, in order to claim intellectual property, you have to go through the work of actually claiming intellectual property. That means the entity making the claim is responsible for making it legal, and defending the claim whenever necessary. That is not the burden of anyone else. There are very clear rules that apply. Third parties claiming IP theft, a fairly common occurrence here, do not make it valid.

The bottom line here is that Sanrenmu can sell decent knives for very little money. That they may be copies of other knives may or may not matter to you, but it's not my concern, nor my responsibility to make it so.

 

[Sep]

What boggles my mind is how Sanrenmu can manufacture a knife of that quality of materials and workmanship and still make a profit?

It seems someone is charging way too much and another not enough?

Not mind boggling at all. Take a look at how much a S&W Extreme Ops folder cost, and how much Sanrenmu sells its version for. By the time you add U.S. brand owner markup and U.S. dealer markup, it's the same price. Look at the price for Spyderco Byrd line, which people here consider excellent knives. If you are not a knife collector, a well-made $20 chinese folder (like Byrd Cara Cara) will serve your EDC needs just fine.

If a knife is nothing more than just another tool (like a screwdriver or a wrench, or the like) for you, then go for $20 chinese knife. If you're passionate about knives like most of us, then feel free to buy branded production knives for $200 or custom ones for $2000.