@Sao2 (Scott Orange) scammed me for $300 and @David L for $170

VentureDan said:
Interesting, thanks for the feedback. As I’m learning how this all works, what does WTS and FSOT mean?
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Wanted to Sell / For Sale or Trade. The buy/sell/trade subforums. If you have questions about someone's selling habits, you can look at their member profile and check their feedback, but you can also check to see which subforums their posts are in. I am most skeptical of people who have been here for a year, have 500 posts, and 450 of them are in a sale or trade subforum.
 
madcap_magician said:
If you have questions about someone's selling habits, you can look at their member profile and check their feedback, but you can also check to see which subforums their posts are in. I am most skeptical of people who have been here for a year, have 500 posts, and 450 of them are in a sale or trade subforum.
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+1 And any seller that says their responsibility end when they ship, which is complete nonsense as well as the whole "FF or pay fees".
 
I somewhat understand the whole “X price plus fees” thing. It’s basically the same as a store saying that a box of cereal is $2.99 and then charging tax later. The store/seller wants to get a certain amount for their product and does not want to have to pay the tax/fees. Could the fees be built into the price, sure. But as a buyer I do the math and if I am still getting a deal paying the fees, I don’t really mind.

$180 plus fees and $3 plus tax is easier to swallow than $190 and $4 for some folks.
 
H0kieengineer said:
I somewhat understand the whole “X price plus fees” thing. It’s basically the same as a store saying that a box of cereal is $2.99 and then charging tax later. The store/seller wants to get a certain amount for their product and does not want to have to pay the tax/fees. Could the fees be built into the price, sure. But as a buyer I do the math and if I am still getting a deal paying the fees, I don’t really mind.

$180 plus fees and $3 plus tax is easier to swallow than $190 and $4 for some folks.
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I really don't either, but where people have a problem is that it is technically against PP's rules and what we agreed to when signing up with PP. My opinion-PP rules were not written for our type of transaction. They were written to avoid hidden fees at the end of a transaction(such as Ebay). Some also feel it is lazy on the part of the seller.
Regardless it does upset some, and I don't run sales ads to upset buyers, so I do a one price with G&S. Easy enough and all parties should be fine with it.
 
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Peter Hartwig said:
I really don't either, but where people have a problem is that it is technically against PP's rules and what we agreed to when signing up with PP. My opinion-PP rules were not written for our type of transaction. They were written to avoid hidden fees at the end of a transaction(such as Ebay). Some also feel it is lazy on the part of the seller.
Regardless it does upset some, and I don't run sales ads to upset buyers, so I do a one price with G&S.
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To be clear, I am not saying that using F&F to buy a knife is ok. I’m just saying that I understand people asking the buyer to pay the fees, if you say so I’m the posting. Asking to have the fees paid when you send your PayPal address is a fast way to lose a sale.
 
H0kieengineer said:
To be clear, I am not saying that using F&F to buy a knife is ok. I’m just saying that I understand people asking the buyer to pay the fees, if you say so I’m the posting. Asking to have the fees paid when you send your PayPal address is a fast way to lose a sale.
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I am not talking about F&F either
Believe you are OK with Price +add fees, which is technically against the PP rules. They say the seller is suppose to pay the fees and there are none to the buyer. As I said I don't think the rules were made for our type transactions. They were made "IMO" for transactions where you get an invoice. In this case someone could get fees by you without ever knowing( if you don't read your invoice). In our transactions the person is fully aware of the fees.
I really doubt PP cares that much ,nor would they ever know, as long as they got their money and there were no complaints
 
H0kieengineer said:
I somewhat understand the whole “X price plus fees” thing. It’s basically the same as a store saying that a box of cereal is $2.99 and then charging tax later. The store/seller wants to get a certain amount for their product and does not want to have to pay the tax/fees. Could the fees be built into the price, sure. But as a buyer I do the math and if I am still getting a deal paying the fees, I don’t really mind.

$180 plus fees and $3 plus tax is easier to swallow than $190 and $4 for some folks.
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I do and don't. Paypal fees are part of overhead expenses for selling, so regardless of what Paypal says, a seller calculates all of his or her expenses and prices his or her item accordingly. So asking for the fees to be a part of it makes sense to me.

BUT.

It's the seller's responsibility to set the price. You go to the store, and you pay sales tax on your purchase, but the cashier tells you how much you owe. The cashier does not say "Oh, it's $32.86 plus fees."

Paypal's fee structure is transparent. Do the math yourself. I know there's at least one transaction on Bladeforums where a seller wanted the buyer to calculate his fees and then there was a huge fight because the buyer's calculation was something like $0.40 different than what the buyer had calculated. I mean... AYFKM.
 
madcap_magician said:
I think it's interesting because a lot of the high-volume sellers on WTS do this. I don't know if they're all bad people, but one reason they do that is because they don't participate in the forum outside of the FSOT forums, so they don't seem to understand the forum zeitgeist about F&F.
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It sucks and they don't see anything wrong with it. Its a real turn off to buying a knife when I see the "net to me".

Peter Hartwig said:
Easiest to just google Pay Pal seller protection for full discription, but there are situations where the buyer gets a refund and PP pays out of their pocket to the seller.
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Doesn't sound like its a real benefit to the seller. F&F seems like the most beneficial to a seller. No recourse.
 
My issue with a seller who requests PAYPAL fees is simple. Buyer has to pay more to get PAYPAL protection? Why wouldn't Seller want this protection as well? These are rhetorical questions as it's not worth the 3% as evidenced by an entire section of BF being dedicated to Buyers or Sellers losing out simply because they used F&F to save a few bucks. The #1, #2, or #3 question in all of these threads is did you use PAYPAL G&S? And unfortunately the answer seems to be "No" a lot more often than I would have believed if I hadn't read them. Anyone who would suggest F&F after reading the negatives in the Feedback section makes me cringe. The new trend is "the blah blah blah thing for sale $XX G&S, $XX lower price F&F" in sales threads. Just nuts.
 
minimize said:
It sucks and they don't see anything wrong with it. Its a real turn off to buying a knife when I see the "net to me".



Doesn't sound like its a real benefit to the seller. F&F seems like the most beneficial to a seller. No recourse.
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Not if they pay with a credit card. The credit card Co. can reverse the charges and F&F will land up with nothing. The guy who was paid with G&S will also have the charges reversed, but PP will pay the seller. The Balls to the Walls sticky was a case in point.
Certainly F&F gives the seller a lot of power, but there is no way I can spin that to being the right.
 
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Peter Hartwig said:
Not if they pay with a credit card. The credit card Co. can reverse the charges and F&F will land up with nothing. The guy who was paid with G&S will also have the charges reversed, but PP will pay the seller. The Balls to the Walls sticky was a case in point.
Certainly F&F gives the seller a lot of power, but there is no way I can spin that to being the right.
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Don't quote me but I believe the person sending funds using F&F and a credit card is charged a fee for using the card. Which is not reversible.
 
So I thought I would give an update to my problem. PayPal just let me know that they have sided with me and will refund me the $191.00 that I paid to cover the PayPal fees and deliver the $185.00 that Sao2 was requesting for the Knife that was never delivered.

What is important for me to share with everyone here is to just do the math and pay the extra PayPal fees so that everyone is covered. If this kind of thing ever happens to you do file a grievance with PayPay and follow through with filing with a law enforcement agency or like I did file with as many as you can figure out how to. It does take time but if everyone did everything they could do every time there would be way less people thinking they could get away with this. Multiple claims will also build up and hopefully when the person responsible does go to court they will not be able to BS their way out of it.
Mostly I have great experiences with everyone here and even though this was not one of them it will not change my outlook or stop me in any way from doing business as usual here. Thank you V VentureDan for filing a complaint with PayPal even though at the time you thought that you had nothing to gain in fact thought it would kill any chance of recovering your money.
 
David L said:
So I thought I would give an update to my problem. PayPal just let me know that they have sided with me and will refund me the $191.00 that I paid to cover the PayPal fees and deliver the $185.00 that Sao2 was requesting for the Knife that was never delivered.

What is important for me to share with everyone here is to just do the math and pay the extra PayPal fees so that everyone is covered. If this kind of thing ever happens to you do file a grievance with PayPay and follow through with filing with a law enforcement agency or like I did file with as many as you can figure out how to. It does take time but if everyone did everything they could do every time there would be way less people thinking they could get away with this. Multiple claims will also build up and hopefully when the person responsible does go to court they will not be able to BS their way out of it.
Mostly I have great experiences with everyone here and even though this was not one of them it will not change my outlook or stop me in any way from doing business as usual here. Thank you V VentureDan for filing a complaint with PayPal even though at the time you thought that you had nothing to gain in fact thought it would kill any chance of recovering your money.
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Great news, so glad to hear the outcome!
 
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