Schatt & Morgan

knifeswapper said:
Most of the keystone is 420HC; but they are in good company with Case, Buck, etc. Every knife has its price point, and ats34 doesn't show up on many $60 knives. In a day when there is a booming market selling $200 - 600 production folders it is great to want the best steel possible; but another thing to ask a low tech factory to start competing in a market they don't belong. Peters Heat does a great job with 420HC and most offline users don't know it doesn't work great until you tell them their knife is not the best.

I have pushed a maker or two to use a little newer steel and they flat out told me they can't afford the equipment upgrade.
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I know that Mike Stewart at Bark River has said that the new knife steels like CPM 154, CPM S35VN, CPM M4, CPM 4V and CRM 3V have had an effect on their production time (labor) and costs in their abrasive belts, and polishing. Not only does the cost of the newer steels, heat treatment etc. get passed on, but the additional manufacturing costs are passed on also.

Tom
 
They have been making 420HC knives for decades. There is a lot of love for the 1095, but many people don't want carbon. And where I think D2 is the way to go, there are those that don't want to buy diamond sticks just to throw an edge back on a knife. So, I would be tickled if they just went ats34 for their standard stainless; but a 420HC sitting on a shelf beside an ats34 (apples to apples) are not going to run the same price. I can buy a 1095 custom that runs much more than a File & Wire - but it doesn't confuse the point that the blade steel is only one aspect of the costing.

Just a little devils advocate because I wish they would phase out 420HC as well; but I know a lot of people that love it as an all around maintainable steel.
 
knifeswapper said:
Just a little devils advocate because I wish they would phase out 420HC as well; but I know a lot of people that love it as an all around maintainable steel.
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I recognize everyone doesn't have my taste! 420HC has its place. It just doesn't have a place in MY pocket.

And that is probably not even fair. Honestly, I think I could live with less edge holding. At the shop people make fun of me because I am always touching up the edges on my knives. If I am on the phone a lot in a day, all my knives are beyond sharp. :)
 
I have a Railsplitter, a Barlow, and a medium Coke bottle. Rail splitter has good F&F and so does Barlow, but Coke bottle is so tight I had to open with pliers and after half jacked for 3 days and can open large blade but small blade has shallow nail nick and I can open with middle finger with a lot of effort, but thumbnail won't fit shallow nail nick. I love Queen and Queen City, but I am done with S&M.
 
People happily use swiss army knives all the time and their steel is not any better, same with kitchen knives.
 
I only have one S&M, one of Charlies SFO harness jacks. It is equal in every respect the Real Harness jack from GEC for Charlie. The Real harness jack is a better carry knife for me because of the punch which cuts perfect holes whereas the S&M is strictly a slot punch.

Have a great day

Robin
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This S&M is one of my favorite knives because of it's great overall construction. I like Queen in general, and since S&M is just another one of Queen's brand names, I may be biased ;-) This particular knife ran me just over 80 bucks... and it does have many of the bells and whistles that the S&M upper lines are known for... and again, for just a bit over half what I paid for a Forge De Laguiole knife... and I like the S&M more :-)
 
S&M/Queen make great knives! Their bone work is better than GEC in my opinion. Aslo many of their knives are premium steel like my "Zombie" Cotton Sampler...:D

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As far as 420HC goes, hopefully HC, I would like to clarify that Queen might not want to use 420 in their self described high end line. Their workhorse line, for example, or another line other than Schatt and Morgan, would probably do fine with 420. At least it isn't 440A, but I would like to see 440C. They are there to make money, I agree. If I was a millionaire, I would buy every pattern, steel and handle material, but I can't.
 
Just from the top of my head, your toothpick would be a F&W Series III (morning ash worm groove bone scales). These seem to have very great F&F (by the way, the grooved and pinched bolsters look very similar to Northfield's). I stepped in at F&W Series VI and it was a story of hit&miss. One was just great, spendy but a real joy... the other four were just as, and way more, spendy but true disappointments. End of my journey into S&M (the knife brand...).
 
As far as being Queens high quality line, I am so so on Schatt and Morgan. Some of their offerings look beautiful. Exotic scales, great patterns etc. When it comes down to a working knife, some are lacking while others performed great. I have one of the Heritage two blade jacks, one of the Heritage single blade jack and one of the premium stockmans. All three are good working knives, but are not the "high end" knives Queen claims they were. I would have liked to have seen the Heritage line came back, except for some loose half stops, and no edges on some, and a bent spring on my two blade jack, ;) :), they were useable.
 


I love my S&M's...But:
of these three the only one that came without issues was the wharncliffe. The Sowbelly had blade wobble side to side and the clip blade would over bounce on closing putting a flat spot on the edge. The cotton sampler I traded for in the exchange( un used by original owner) with full disclosure from the seller that it had significant blade wobble. Luckily for me I remedied all of the shortcomings at my workbench. I love the materials, I love the designs, and I love the ATS-34 steel in these knives. They are users. But I would only recommend to someone asking that they buy from a dealer with a liberal return policy, or a dealer who is willing to hand select, or buy in person and inspect before purchasing. I will buy more S&M and Queen products, but in my experience their fit and finish is a crap shoot. Earlier this year I had to return a linen micarta locking sodbuster that was near impossible to disengage the lock when open. I cringe every time I order a Queen product, but when you get a good one they are hard to beat. Hopefully the new owners rectify these swings in the QC, time will tell...
 
What some don't realize, is the grooved bolsters, the swedges, all those attentions to detail are S&M hallmarks that were copied by GEC, Canal Street and Case (in their Bose line). Queen has had those features on their premium knives for quite awhile. Premium knives being their S&M line and the host of high quality SFOs they put out for private labels.

Bose got Case to start the sweet swedges, grooved bolsters, rat-tails, etc. in the late 1990s, followed by Canal Street and then Case. There would be no Canal Street or GEC if it were not for the successful S&M line and it's classic patterns and construction methods. Even the use of D2 and the resurgence of 1095 was "pioneered" by Queen.
 
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My only S&M (Heritage),must be a wrong line or year,while i like the knife it is full of issues,i can just dream how good it would be without them(uneven grinds,funky walk&talk)but hey,it is user and it doesn't fall apart,it's actually very sturdy knife. :)
Hope my next S&M will be more in line of high end knives.
 
Rinos, I hope that Ken and Ryan resurrect the Heritage series. My premium stock knife is a nice knife, it just could be better as you said. Doesn't really embody what the Heritage line could have been.
 
brownshoe said:
What some don't realize, is the grooved bolsters, the swedges, all those attentions to detail are S&M hallmarks that were copied by GEC, Canal Street and Case (in their Bose line). Queen has had those features on their premium knives for quite awhile. Premium knives being their S&M line and the host of high quality SFOs they put out for private labels.

Bose got Case to start the sweet swedges, grooved bolsters, rat-tails, etc. in the late 1990s, followed by Canal Street and then Case. There would be no Canal Street or GEC if it were not for the successful S&M line and it's classic patterns and construction methods. Even the use of D2 and the resurgence of 1095 was "pioneered" by Queen.
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And some don't realize that the Owner and Founder of GEC worked at Queen Cutlery (manufacturers of Schatt & Morgan) for over 3 decades. Thus probably having built many of the afore mentioned knives.
 
rma100 said:
And some don't realize that the Owner and Founder of GEC worked at Queen Cutlery (manufacturers of Schatt & Morgan) for over 3 decades. Thus probably having built many of the afore mentioned knives.
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Additionally, as I understand it, he not only built them but was the designer as well.
 
I still think that Queen/S&M make some of the prettiest knives out there. Their bone work is second to none and is my favorite overall. My hope is that their QA gets to other manufacturers level and they will excel.
 
Got this in the mail today. 1196 in bone stag. I like it. :thumbup:

 
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