Schatt & Morgan?

this little thing came in today, a schatt and morgan seconds,

so the cosmetics, the S&M is off center, and not fully stamped


and the EDC over the ATS34


impressions. very interesting. the blade stock is thinner than the spring a little bit. there is a noticeable gap when examining how the knife is sandwiched together. the bone was fine
 
Very tidy knife that, I like it a lot. :thumbup: Not much to say that's it's a 'second' looks very decent. OK the blade has that weird etching (which can be removed) and WHY do they spoil the blade with that ugly ATS 34 writing ( I won't glorify it with the word 'etch'...)???:confused::barf:

Otherwise an extremely good looking knife, was it a lot cheaper?

Regards, Will
 
Will Power said:
Very tidy knife that, I like it a lot. :thumbup: Not much to say that's it's a 'second' looks very decent. OK the blade has that weird etching (which can be removed) and WHY do they spoil the blade with that ugly ATS 34 writing ( I won't glorify it with the word 'etch'...)???:confused::barf:
Otherwise an extremely good looking knife, was it a lot cheaper?
Regards, Will
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its funny you say that, because i did try to buff it off soon after. not too hard tho, just a slight polishing, an attempt to see how deep the etch was. it was indeed. it was on auction on the bay, so idk how much the seller got it for, but compared to retail it was almost 30% off depending on where you look
 
As requested. I suppose only one of these are from the Heritage series, thats why I thought both were. Its stamped into the jigged bone one.



pretty well centered



some pin shots



spring shot, well flushed



the site said no half stops, but that feels like one to me



pretty flush, if not sunk in a little during mid open at half stop



Heritage series stamp (missing from ebony one)


full open, with authoritative snap



spring is flush on open, but idk what the term is for that tiny gap there



some polish snafu


blade well shot, not much to show, but there was no gaps


and to the ebony

tiny gap by shield, nothing to cry about



not exactly uniform covers



no complaints on the centering from me



that is oil not etchant



theres that tiny gap again, but flushed on open. no half stops on this one like site states



and heres the blade with printing, again oil only, cause 1095, i didnt wipe it cause its going to be stored. will be buying another to carry.



all in all, im pleased with this purchase. i believe ive linked disappoints prior on a coke bottle as well as the heritage clip jack in a different queen/schatt and morgan thread.
 
c/p from the other

Two new schatt and morgans for me todays, one is a repeat.

even between the two from the same run theres a difference, same goof by the shield



this ones finished slightly better imo



slightly more rounded compared to the other one



same funky finishing issues, but heritage stamp?


one has it one doesnt, :confused:


the other day i thought these looked similar, but here they are side by side.



ones thicker, but both have the same blade to handle ratio mistake, could have put a little more blade there



interesting stamp on it,



the pull is a 1.5 :thumbdn:



i have to say, their quality control leaves a lot of questions. are these parts knives? one run? why the variations? etc. I bought two on purpose because I really enjoy the pattern and wanted one to carry, but if theres a variation, might even have to buy a third :confused: that tear drop is just a confusing knife all together, interesting tho. Its pull is so light they couldve left the nail nick off :yawn:
 
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mrknife said:
i have to say, their quality control leaves a lot of questions. are these parts knives? one run? why the variations? etc.
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Many of these short runs are parts knives. When the Daniels bought the company there were bins of parts that came along with it. They are working through those while making their regular runs. They've also been finding lots of old stuff while they're cleaning out different rooms in the factory.
 
Cory Hess said:
Many of these short runs are parts knives. When the Daniels bought the company there were bins of parts that came along with it. They are working through those while making their regular runs. They've also been finding lots of old stuff while they're cleaning out different rooms in the factory.
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so you reckon it might be a bit before there are true new runs of knives? hmm might have to put it back in the box then if these are gonna be collector pieces, floor room specials!
 
I probably worded that wrong. The knives in their catalog are completely new, which I was calling their "regular runs". They're also running these parts knives, which come out as short runs. I don't know that all of the short runs are parts knives, but at least some of them are. If you were to contact them I'm sure they'd tell you which ones are parts knives and which aren't. They've been pretty open with me about it.
 
Cory Hess said:
I probably worded that wrong...If you were to contact them I'm sure they'd tell you which ones are parts knives and which aren't. They've been pretty open with me about it.
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nice! which ones have you bought recently?
 
mrknife said:
nice! which ones have you bought recently?
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I actually haven't bought any of their short runs since the spring. I've been focusing on other areas of my collection. The last one I bought was this 69 in Elk:



They did a fantastic job on this run, but it's a little short for my tastes. (I like larger knives)

One that's been really hard for me to resist is the 06 in Moose Antler:

DSC_3826.jpg


I did pick up this mini trapper at their open house in August:



I guess I'd consider it a short run, though I don't think it's a parts knife. I didn't ask. I guess it's possible.
 
Cory Hess said:
I actually haven't bought any of their short runs since the spring. I've been focusing on other areas of my collection. The last one I bought was this 69 in Elk:



...
I guess I'd consider it a short run, though I don't think it's a parts knife. I didn't ask. I guess it's possible.
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nice! i was really considering this one, how do you like it so far, s&m blade stock seems thinner to me
 
mrknife said:
nice! i was really considering this one, how do you like it so far, s&m blade stock seems thinner to me
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Funny story on that one. The blade ended up not being 1095. I don't know if I got an anomaly or if all of them were incorrectly marked. I noticed after carrying it for a week or so that it wasn't taking a patina, so I soaked it in some vinegar, and nothing. I got ahold of Ryan Daniels and told him about it. He said that these blades had been found in the factory and were previously marketed as 1095, so that's what they went with. He wasn't sure if I just got a wonky one or didn't know what I was talking about, but he was pretty sure most were 1095. I ended up trading it back to them for another knife so that they could check it out. In fact, the mini-trapper is the knife I traded this one for.

Other than the steel being stainless I loved the knife. It's a bit short for me because I prefer longer knives, but for the 3 1/2" crowd I don't think you could do much better. It was beautifully made. Good snap in both directions, great fit and finish, great grinds, nice thin slicy blade, etc. The elk on it was beautiful on both sides. I really liked the knife and struggled to turn it in, but I wanted them to be able to check it out and verify what I was telling them. You can see that the tang was etched instead of stamped. I'm guessing this is because it was a parts knife and they were working with what they had. I'd prefer a stamp, especially on a 1095 blade as the etch can be lost pretty easily. Other than that minor issue it's just a top notch knife all around.
 
Cory Hess said:
Funny story on that one. The blade ended up not being 1095. I don't know if I got an anomaly or if all of them were incorrectly marked. I noticed after carrying it for a week or so that it wasn't taking a patina, so I soaked it in some vinegar, and nothing. I got ahold of Ryan Daniels and told him about it. He said that ... knife and they were working with what they had. I'd prefer a stamp, especially on a 1095 blade as the etch can be lost pretty easily. Other than that minor issue it's just a top notch knife all around.
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Ha so they do just slap things together! I couldnt tell you the difference in the steel performance, but to lie about them to dealers and what not really misrepresents their products :( honestly id preferred if they just said, sorry old factory stock, we cant be too sure if its 1095, 420HC or what not. That or test it to find out.
 
Hah! That explains it! I picked up a 69 in stag on the exchange, and all my regular tricks to force a patina were in vain. I'd been eyeing these for a while because I really wanted the carbon steel blade, so when one came up on the exchange for a great price, I grabbed it. I'd be pretty pissed if I had paid full price, and received a bait and switch, but as it is, I'm happy enough with it. It ain't perfect by any means, but at least it's better than some other S&M's I paid full price for.

~Jim

Cory Hess said:
Funny story on that one. The blade ended up not being 1095. I don't know if I got an anomaly or if all of them were incorrectly marked. I noticed after carrying it for a week or so that it wasn't taking a patina, so I soaked it in some vinegar, and nothing. I got ahold of Ryan Daniels and told him about it. He said that these blades had been found in the factory and were previously marketed as 1095, so that's what they went with. He wasn't sure if I just got a wonky one or didn't know what I was talking about, but he was pretty sure most were 1095. I ended up trading it back to them for another knife so that they could check it out. In fact, the mini-trapper is the knife I traded this one for.

Other than the steel being stainless I loved the knife. It's a bit short for me because I prefer longer knives, but for the 3 1/2" crowd I don't think you could do much better. It was beautifully made. Good snap in both directions, great fit and finish, great grinds, nice thin slicy blade, etc. The elk on it was beautiful on both sides. I really liked the knife and struggled to turn it in, but I wanted them to be able to check it out and verify what I was telling them. You can see that the tang was etched instead of stamped. I'm guessing this is because it was a parts knife and they were working with what they had. I'd prefer a stamp, especially on a 1095 blade as the etch can be lost pretty easily. Other than that minor issue it's just a top notch knife all around.
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I'd be happier if it wasn't 1095. I wish they'd go back to ATS34 for S&M knives or use D2. Queen's ATS34 and D2 is harder than their 1095 and holds an edge longer.
 
I just wish the steel they did use, the stamp on it was what it really is, cause now i have to go wipe off that mineral oil. btw does ATS34 or D2 require oiling?
 
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I too wish Queen would go back to their D2.

But perhaps they have none left....?

D2 will patina if you cut citrus fruits with it but apart from that, it really does not need protective oiling like carbon.

However, all this comedy of errors with the blade steels, sending out 1095 carbon that won't patina which is in fact some type of stainless, is doing the company no favours on the credibility count. I mean it's ridiculous farce, as if they can't carryout a simple QC test on the steel it's absurd. I like the look of that elk knife but who can say they don't mind which steel it arrives in whatever the stamp says? Get a grip!
 
To be fair, I knew when I bought the knife that it was a parts knife. I knew that it was from a stash of parts that they found in the factory and not anything that they had recently made. They have always been very upfront about this with me. The blades were marked as 1095, and they were able to verify that the knives that had been made from these parts had previously been sold as 1095. I would see no reason for them to do any further tests. If somebody bought Case and found a batch of knives marked CV I wouldn't expect them to attempt to verify that. I also don't know that any of the other 69s from that run weren't 1095. It's very possible that the bin had 200 1095 blades in it and one or two 420HCs got thrown in there at some point over the years and I just happened to get one of those. I believe that the one I had was 420HC because it sharpened up and behaved enough like 1095 that I didn't suspect until the patina failed to form. The knife was fantastically made, and even though I'm not a fan of stainless I was tempted to keep it because I really liked the knife. I mostly gave it back so that they could check it out and see what I was talking about as far as it not forming a patina.

If you bought a knife that you think was a parts knife and that wasn't communicated to you beforehand I'd talk to your dealer. Queen has been very upfront about which runs are parts knives and which aren't. I would think that their dealers would be better informed than I am, so my guess is that the dealers are the ones that aren't communicating this as well as they could. This is just a guess on my part, but I do know of at least one dealer that puts out a blog post for each new run and it usually says when a run is made up of parts knives.

As far as their D2 is concerned, they're still running their regular Queen runs in D2. It's the short runs that have the large variety of steels. Most of these short runs seem to be coming out designated as Schatt & Morgans, and if you look at their catalog this year they only have 2 knives listed in their File & Wire line and 4 in their Keystone line so I think that the short runs were a big part of their plan this year. This is all conjecture on my part, just sharing my best guesses.
 
mrknife said:
I just wish the steel they did use, the stamp on it was what it really is, cause now i have to go wipe off that mineral oil. btw does ATS34 or D2 require oiling?
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Ats34 is stainless high carbon, D2 has chromium, but is not considered stainless. My experience is that it develops a patina and will rust, but not as quick or dramatic as 1095, O1, etc. I would clean it off after use and oil before storage.
 
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