Scientific method

i am sure that any intelligent debate that involves tai goo , kevin cashen as well as numerous and very interested knifemakers ; will not be detered by my obnoxious comments. often i comment to bring posts back to the top because they are of interest and pertinent. of course this motivation is secondary to ball breaking. i would hope intellectual discourse would continue; not withstanding my diatribe.

although some makers and hobbists do ,what they do ,for fun ; and are not necessarily motivated to optomise performance. the only true way to increase the scope of known knowledge is through experamentation. the process of the scientific method is known , and taught (even in elementry schools), as such is beacuse it works. limiting changes to individual variables in an orderly fashion works. the results must also be repeatable. not doing so is the reason the media jumps on these , so called , break through studies only to uncover another , life changing , study that contradicts the previous one. we often hear about flawed studies and skewed results because when examined the results are not repeatable ; enevitably because the scientific method was not followed.

All right. Who are you and what did you do with Kieth?
Had to steal my "bitter and murky" line too....I'm telling my wife!;)

Matt, The reason I posted on this thread was so I would get the updates sent to my e-mail...busting chops was just a bonus, but I am still a firm believer that there should be more boobs in science.
As a matter of fact, I think if you showed some boobs on this thread you might get more interest in your "scienific theories"....:D
Just a thought.
Mace
 
Excellent response, Keith. I concur wholeheartedly! In fact, I think most every post in this thread has been spot-on. However, it's also a thread posted in by the 'usual suspects'... I'm wondering if there's just nothing else anyone has to add, or if there are any voices of dissension that aren't saying anything because they're worried about being lynched.

Keith, I don't think I could face life without your ballbreaking... however, I do find it much funnier when Mace is on the receiving end!
 
I will add one dissenting voice. I don't usually post on this forum. I am on the wilderness survival one.


It is good to criticize science. However, what is in its place? religion? might makes right?

The main criticism that was posted is called illusionary correlations. IC is a bias that all humans fall victim to on occasion. Science is the only field that has a process to weed these out. Of course, it may take a while. That is what sucks.

The real problem is when we have to change the course of society due to "evidence." This is where science bumps into public policy. It is not an easy path to negotiate. Science is often wrong but what else rivals it?

But I would place my future and my son's future in science before religion. Science to date has the best prediction rate than any other field.

Respectfully

Psy
 
science is not factual!!!! it has never been factual .. it is an ever changing living search for current information. it is consistantly changing as new ideas and information are hypothisised and tested through the proper application of the scientific method. a little over a generation ago it was held as fact that the atom was the smallest paritcle ;than protrons , neutrons and electrons were found ;now we are down to quarks and other infantesimal particulates. the consept of what is fact is constantly changing.
there is a famous quote that i am going to screw up. i think it was made by the head of the u.s. patent office in the early 1900's he said something like "every thing that will ever be invented has already been invented" yet science has advanced more in the past twenty or thirty years than it had since the beggining of time.
 
Tai Goo,

That was one hell of a link you posted there. Took me a while to digest it and to consider my own philosophical underpinnings before I spit out a response.

While I found myself agreeing with many of the authors criticisms, I wasn't sure that the alternative method presented by the same author in the end of the article actually differs in any real sense to what has been verbalized already as the scientific method above. The alternative is presented as the following:

"1) Question: You begin with a puzzle, a mystery, a surprising event: You don't understand a phenomenon which has occurred, or which occurs regularly.

2) Hypothesis: Try to imagine a process or situation which meets this criterion: If what you've imagined were really the case, the puzzling phenomenon would make sense.

3) Testing: Find out if the hypothesis itself makes sense, by exploring its other consequences: If it were correct, what else should be observed? What would show that the hypothesis is wrong?

4) Evaluation: Decide whether the results of testing warrant accepting the hypothesis as a plausible explanation for the phenomenon. Consider the possibility of further testing, and whether other hypotheses might provide a better explanation."

Functionally there is little difference here, other then missing (5) peer review. The main difference that I could see is something rather subtle. I would suggest that (#1) in the scheme above tends to be much more constrained than idealized by the author. The investigator usually has some demonstrated expertise in the field of inquiry prior to attempting to proceed to (2). In otherwords, you are already familiar with existing theories (or if you prefer operating paradigms). This leads to a much greater degree of constraining of the types of hypotheses that can be generated to address #2.

The hypothesis must be consistent with existing evidence and this requires familarity with competing theory, past experiments and current thinking regarding the subject matter. I think it is at this stage that the author of the link confuses rampant use of both inductive and deductive approaches in science. If you really think about the constraints associated with (1), then deductive reasoning is by far the more common approach.

Of course this is also a common critique of science - 'we have blinders on that have been placed there by our own training' Indeed one of the stated reasons for rapid advancements when a field adopts more multi-disciplanary approaches is that it produces more creativity at the level of the hypothesis generation stage. I think this is a valid criticism, but also to a matter of degree. Unconstrained creativity (the equivalent of scientific anarchy if you will) is also arguably not very fruitful - after all the number of alternative hypotheses is always infinite!

Finally, and as was stated previously, peer review is an essential component of the method. Peer review cannot guarentee that good science has occurred, but it is an attempt to provide objective evaluation for a set of experimental results and the interpretation of those results. People sometimes criticise peer review in its failures, for example in its inability to detect fraud and data fudging. Peer review cannot necessarily detect fraud at the time a publication is put forward, although over time most frauds are usually recognized as signfiicant outliers in the weight of evidence database. This of course takes time and is one reason why scientists tend to be a bit cautious in terms of over-interpreting results. It is more difficult to detect the other type of fraud - the manipulator producing false data that fully supports existing theory. This can only be detected when experiments have been replicated by independent sources.

In practice, peer review can also be said to operate at two different steps in the science method. We are usually familiar with peer review occuring at step #5. But peer review also occurs between step 1 and 2. This is peer review at the proposal stage. You have to demonstrate your expertise and conceptual model before the funder gives you the cash to run the experiment.

So there are two factors above that can hinder, or at least produce lags to knowledge gain using the scientific method. Arguably, both factors are related to the need to generate weight of evidence from multiple experiments and observations. The first is related to the constraining of creativity to the expertise of a given sub-discipline, the second is the widespread belief that no single experiment is likely to be so perfect in its execution that it will cause complete collapse of existing theory.

So finally back to the OP - how does this all relate to knife making? I really don't know :o

As I said in my previous post, facts really aren't part of scientific dialogue. Conceptual models are designed to provide, 'the least worst' explanation of the truth. Progress is made by recognizing that continued improvements in the conceptual model take place. The adminstration of the method recognizes the need to repeat experiments by different groups while also simultaneously testing as many different aspects of the theory as possible. These features instill a conservative component to scientific progress that isn't always economically optimized.
 
As I said in my previous post, facts really aren't part of scientific dialogue. Conceptual models are designed to provide, 'the least worst' explanation of the truth.


Well said!

This is exactly the type of post I love... truly a great observation!
 
I think we may really need to define "facts". What is the source of facts? How do we obtain them? I would prefer to leave "truth" to the philosophers. Have 3 different people witness the same event and all three will give totally but equally valid versions of the truth. Gathering evidence or obtaining a video of the event would provide you with facts. Facts are objective; truth is an entirely subjective concept. I would rather my science not deal with "truths"; I can get that on Sunday morning. The reason I intentionally use the word "truth" in my signature line is for is ambiguous effect.
 
The words “fact” and “truth” are synonymous.

Two people can look at the same glass of water and one will say, “It is half full” and the other will say, “It is half empty”.
 
The words “fact” and “truth” are synonymous.

Two people can look at the same glass of water and one will say, “It is half full” and the other will say, “It is half empty”.

Yes, but while both of those are true, they are still fact based opinions not facts, the fact behind would be the glass contains 1/2 it's maximum capacity of water.
 
Yes, but while both of those are true, they are still fact based opinions not facts, the fact behind would be the glass contains 1/2 it's maximum capacity of water.

In science, facts and truth are interdependent. You can only find the truth about something you are investigating by uncovering the pertinent facts.

"The Truth" may be a different, more subjective critter.

Being a good scientist involves an amount of self control to avoid imposing your personal subjectivity on your work. That is why constant testing and some self skepticism are healthy.

A friend of mine once said you can guage the greatness of a scientist by how long he holds up progress in his field after he dies. This was a scarcastic remark, but not without merit. Most real progress-great leaps of progress-are made by young scientists, often grad students.
 
In science, facts and truth are interdependent. You can only find the truth about something you are investigating by uncovering the pertinent facts.

I think that's the gist of it. However, I understand why Kevin is reluctant to utilize the word 'truth' as well, and I agree with him. It's semantics, but it's the connotation the word implies that makes it worth avoiding, at least as it would apply here.
 
It sounds as though the word 'fact' is replacing 'measurement' and not 'theory'. Theory and measurement are not the same. Measurements refer to repeatable observations and theory involves the conceptual model that explains a collection of observations and allows for prediction and control.

In this vein, theory, is more complex and therefore has more degrees of freedom associated with it than a given set of measurements do. Here is where we start to see inklings of subjectivity. It is also partly what I meant before when I said no single experiment is likely to be perfect enough to completely destroy a full theory. At the very least, theory requires peer review and therefore an subjective viewpoint has to be shared across the principal investigator as well as the reviewers.

At the other end of the spectrum, measurements are more repeatable and therefore more subject to independent evaluation. However, all measurments come with some degree of error. Measurements and observations in themselves don't explain things. You need theory to interpret measurements.

Those are some interesting observations Steve. Crotchety old scientists tend to hold onto to their ways because they hold the burden of a rich history of collecting observations throughout their respective careers. They've probably seen a given theory challanged many times before and get less caught up with the inertia of what is sexy today. Science needs both the old crotchety guy as well as the overly enthusiastic young pups to make peer review function.
 
You can have all the facts right,... but still reach the wrong conclusion.
 
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