Scientific method

Tai Goo said:
Kevin, That makes sense! :)

My question is, how big of a role does or should science play in bladesmithing? My concern is that the more emphasis bladesmiths put on science or metallurgy,… the more it appears as a pseudoscience to the public… the “science of bladesmithing“.

When I was studying metalsmithing in art school, the “basic metallurgy” was always taught and explained, but there was really more emphasis on creativity, innovation, originality, concept, design, execution or craftsmanship,… and things of that nature.

Metallurgy was taught more in terms of understanding the processes, techniques, methods and the implications and reasons thereof... Lengthy detailed discussions of metallurgy were usually avoided or left to the individuals who wanted to learn more on their own, as science just wasn’t the field of study in art school.
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One huge difference in bladesmithing from other metal arts is heat treating. Getting "creative" in heat treating without a good grounding in what the heck is actually going on is exactly what has spawned all of the psuedoscience tripe we are plagued with. Not that every maker should have to embrace sound metallurgy. If I had my choice I would allow the makers to continue doing whatever they were doing, but all the collectors and potential buyers would have enough in-depth knowledge to spot the pseudoscience and be immune to the tall tale marketing.

Tim Z and I were just chuckling on the phone this morning about pseudoscience and how people get the wrong impression that we would want to see it all gone....wrong! The world is just too fun with these sideshows in them, and would be too boring without them. It would be fine if they could continue on as always but with the useful and responsible disclaimer -"For entertainment purposes only! Heck fortune telling is fun stuff until people take it seriously enough to have large ammounts of money bilked from them with it;).
 
Kevin, I think that's true... but it may be hard, if not impossible, for the average looker on to tell the difference between pseudoscience and true science... No one has a monopoly on science or logic, do they?

Heat treating is used in other types of metal arts, but it's "quench hardening steel" that seems to be what makes bladesmithing (along with other quench hardened steel tools) unique... That and a very illustrious history. :)

You have to wonder where the line between "metalsmithing" and "metallurgy" came in? They both seem to have the exact same historical origin dating way back to around 6,000 to 10,000 BC. Early cultures have been credited with starting both, regardless of how they explained it,… which probably wasn’t very scientific by our standards. So, where and when did metallurgy "as we know it" branch off?
 
Historically and in general terms, all “metalsmiths” are practicing “metallurgists“, regardless of their culture, perspective or how they explain the fundamentals of their craft,… because the medium they work with is metal, and metal is ordinary matter which follows the laws of ordinary physics and reality… Working knowledge is working knowledge and accomplishment is accomplishment,…any way you slice it.

I think that is a given.
 
People have been working with metals very successfully within the context of their times, cultures and ideologies,… long before the discovery or knowledge of the atom…
 
Kieth,
Just so you know...I thought you were being very smart and dove deep into your vocabulary to come up with "mathetical".:thumbup: I actually tried looking it up before I busted chops.;)
Mace
 
LOL

I think I'm ready to let this thread die now...

... next time pseudoscience raises it's ugly head, I'll just throw some art, some philosophy, some history, some logic and some mathetical ratio at it. :)
 
Tai Goo said:
LOL

I think I'm ready to let this thread die now...

... next time pseudoscience raises it's ugly head, I'll just throw some art, some philosophy, some history, some logic and some mathetical ratio at it. :)
Click to expand...



Does mathetical rhyme with pathetical?


HHAHAHAHAHHAHAAAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:D:D:D:D:D


...sorry, Kiethy, couldn't help it, buddy!;)
 
Kevin R. Cashen said:
One huge difference in bladesmithing from other metal arts is heat treating. Getting "creative" in heat treating without a good grounding in what the heck is actually going on is exactly what has spawned all of the psuedoscience tripe we are plagued with. Not that every maker should have to embrace sound metallurgy. If I had my choice I would allow the makers to continue doing whatever they were doing, but all the collectors and potential buyers would have enough in-depth knowledge to spot the pseudoscience and be immune to the tall tale marketing.

Tim Z and I were just chuckling on the phone this morning about pseudoscience and how people get the wrong impression that we would want to see it all gone....wrong! The world is just too fun with these sideshows in them, and would be too boring without them. It would be fine if they could continue on as always but with the useful and responsible disclaimer -"For entertainment purposes only! Heck fortune telling is fun stuff until people take it seriously enough to have large ammounts of money bilked from them with it;).
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:eek:
I could very well be wrong and or maybe you are making a sort of wishful thinking joke but I get the impression you are saying you would like to see everyone in the world educated in metallurgy and blade geometry except for your fellow knife makers.

I could see how if this was possible you would be a happy camper. You and a few others would be left with a monopoly on the custom knife market and actually have far more business than you could handle. :thumbup:

While all the good old boys with their creative heat treat methods would be packed into a small car driving around with their round red noses and polka dot suits.

I would think though, because you have spent a good deal of time here on this forum helping out, you do want to see some of your fellow knife makers educate themselves.




As far as pseudoscience goes I personally feel there are many ways it has a much more detrimental effect on us than it does on custom knives. Like say pharmaceutical companies. I would call most of the science in medicine chalk full of pseudoscience. If not pseudoscience just bad science. My favorite add is depression hurts prosaic can help.

Anyone trying to sell definitive answers may as well be selling magic tonic.
There are no definitive answers, this is after all what the scientific method is all about right?

I would love to live in a world full of freethinking educated questioning people but I am sure it will not happen in my life.

Science can stifle creativity but usually its not science that is the problem but the human condition. People are selfish and ignorant and afraid of what they don’t know. People are also likely to want some conclusion and when there is none they regress. Then of course there is the right brain left brain issue and the limits of the human mind.

Well anyhow I do very much enjoy reading these discussions and hope to meet you guys in person some day. The motivation behind the art always interests me. That is what makes art great the flawed human behind the work.

Thanks
 
:D:D:D:thumbup:

I wanted to add some of these so you guys know that the above post was meant to be friendly but I am afraid I am not good at sounding friendly.:foot:
 
steelshaper said:
....As far as pseudoscience goes I personally feel there are many ways it has a much more detrimental effect on us than it does on custom knives. Like say pharmaceutical companies. I would call most of the science in medicine chalk full of pseudoscience. If not pseudoscience just bad science. My favorite add is depression hurts prosaic can help. ......
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Science and business are not always the most comfortable bedfellows, Will. Pharmaceuticals is a good example of the marketing cart pushing the science horse. Medicine is as much business as science, also. Sometimes it gets confusing, trying to sort out just whom is driving the wagon. :)
 
steelshaper said:
:eek:
I could very well be wrong and or maybe you are making a sort of wishful thinking joke but I get the impression you are saying you would like to see everyone in the world educated in metallurgy and blade geometry except for your fellow knife makers.

I could see how if this was possible you would be a happy camper. You and a few others would be left with a monopoly on the custom knife market and actually have far more business than you could handle. :thumbup:

While all the good old boys with their creative heat treat methods would be packed into a small car driving around with their round red noses and polka dot suits.

I would think though, because you have spent a good deal of time here on this forum helping out, you do want to see some of your fellow knife makers educate themselves.




As far as pseudoscience goes I personally feel there are many ways it has a much more detrimental effect on us than it does on custom knives. Like say pharmaceutical companies. I would call most of the science in medicine chalk full of pseudoscience. If not pseudoscience just bad science. My favorite add is depression hurts prosaic can help.

Anyone trying to sell definitive answers may as well be selling magic tonic.
There are no definitive answers, this is after all what the scientific method is all about right?

I would love to live in a world full of freethinking educated questioning people but I am sure it will not happen in my life.

Science can stifle creativity but usually its not science that is the problem but the human condition. People are selfish and ignorant and afraid of what they don’t know. People are also likely to want some conclusion and when there is none they regress. Then of course there is the right brain left brain issue and the limits of the human mind.

Well anyhow I do very much enjoy reading these discussions and hope to meet you guys in person some day. The motivation behind the art always interests me. That is what makes art great the flawed human behind the work.

Thanks
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O.K.

... but could you please just go into a little more depth, detail, facts, etc... and elaborate for us, so that we may all be enlightened,... on what you just said?
 
Probably time for this thread to die (but I doubt it).

Tai Goo - I don't think metalsmithes and metallurgists are opposing forces, nor do they diverge from each other. Both evolve as science allows more development. 150 Years ago we were just moving from wrought iron, and good quality carbon steel was a valuable commodity to be salvaged from any source available. Today we have a variety of quality steels, and often advise against salvaging steel for blades. This is the result of metallurgists working with metalsmiths.
When i was 30 the metal structure in a hamnon was called Troosite. Today the metallurgists say that Troosite doesn't exist. Does this make a choji hamon formed by a metalsmith less beautiful (or easier to form)? Of course not! The metallurgical science has just helped him decipher what was always going on to a finer understanding. This will allow less magic and mystery and more repeatability of the results.

Science is the friend of the skilled smith, not his adversary. I think that metallurgists work in the scientific improvement of metals,driven by the needs of metalsmits, while the metalsmith works in the practice of metals and the application of the best metallurgy available. The master smith should strive to understand both..... and keep current of the constant evolution.
Stacy
 
Tai Goo said:
LOL

I think I'm ready to let this thread die now...

... next time pseudoscience raises it's ugly head, I'll just throw some art, some philosophy, some history, some logic and some mathetical ratio at it. :)
Click to expand...

Now we can get to the real discussion! :jerkit:
 
bladsmth said:
Probably time for this thread to die (but I doubt it).

Tai Goo - I don't think metalsmithes and metallurgists are opposing forces, nor do they diverge from each other. Both evolve as science allows more development. 150 Years ago we were just moving from wrought iron, and good quality carbon steel was a valuable commodity to be salvaged from any source available. Today we have a variety of quality steels, and often advise against salvaging steel for blades. This is the result of metallurgists working with metalsmiths.
When i was 30 the metal structure in a hamnon was called Troosite. Today the metallurgists say that Troosite doesn't exist. Does this make a choji hamon formed by a metalsmith less beautiful (or easier to form)? Of course not! The metallurgical science has just helped him decipher what was always going on to a finer understanding. This will allow less magic and mystery and more repeatability of the results.

Science is the friend of the skilled smith, not his adversary. I think that metallurgists work in the scientific improvement of metals,driven by the needs of metalsmits, while the metalsmith works in the practice of metals and the application of the best metallurgy available. The master smith should strive to understand both..... and keep current of the constant evolution.
Stacy
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O.K.

… but I’m not so sure that your conclusion is metallogically correct. :D
 
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Sam Salvati said:
Now we can get to the real discussion! :jerkit:
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Sam, Judging by your emoticon,…. I can see that you are back, (semi-hard), at your favorite pseudosexual pastime. If we ever meet in person, remind me not to shake your hand. LOL :D
 
... just bumping this thread back up to the top! :)

The cream always rises to the top!... Huh Sam?
 
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