screwy idea for tempering

Texaco type A. :D
I think Shell uses about the same wording to describe their H201, which is what I have, and is pretty much identical to type A.

:thumbup:

though of course, industrial use of quench oils is usualy a lot different from quenching thin blades...which is why Tex A works so well ,especialy when pre heated. :)
 
Sorry, but I'm just catching up on the posts for this thread and I thought that these pictures that might help answer a question that was asked earlier about Don Fogg's hand sanding technique.
jmd61: what ARE these secret hand sanding techniques?
These are some pictures that I took at Ashokan this year of Don Fogg and his sanding tools.

Fogg-finishing-stuff.jpg


Fogg-finishing-equip.jpg


Fogg-sanding-jig.jpg


Fogg-finishing-demo2.jpg

And now, please continue with the quenching oil discussion.
 
fitzo: I would love to see a foto of you and Tim doing one of your lectures in those glasses with the plastic nose and furry eyebrows and mustache.

Not quite what you asked for, but perhaps amusing anyway:

Cashen-damascus-demo2.jpg

Kevin, since you asked; I have a few suggestions for Ashokan 2007. I would like to see Dan Maragni give the demo on "Grinding Longish Blades" that he had to pass on this year. I would also like to see a demo on forging historic/exotic blade shape, such as saxs, axes/hawks, and the like. Chris Kravitt of Tree Stump Leather put on a nice sheath making demo a few years back, and it might be time for someone to give another. What I would really like to see, however, is you and Dan doing a heat treating lecture together. When the two of you get going it's quite mind boggling, but always fun to watch.
 
Sorry, but I'm just catching up on the posts for this thread and I thought that these pictures that might help answer a question that was asked earlier about Don Fogg's hand sanding technique.
These are some pictures that I took at Ashokan this year of Don Fogg and his sanding tools.

Fogg-finishing-stuff.jpg


Fogg-finishing-equip.jpg


Fogg-sanding-jig.jpg


Fogg-finishing-demo2.jpg

And now, please continue with the quenching oil discussion.
I tried that just by using a 12 x 3/4 x 1/4 brass bar and a astrip of 2' 220 grit shop roll and WOW!!! What a difference!
:thumbup:
 
Interesting stuff, Kevin. Now for another question. I can surmise that if you use a "slow" oil on a "fast" steel" you may have issues with it not hardening properly.

Correct, but the terms I like to use is a slow oil in a shallow hardening steel. Steel does't have a sense of time but it does have limitations as to how deep the colling effect will be able to circumvent pearlite formation.


But what if you use a "fast" oil on a medium or slow steel?
5160 will nto be as sensiteve to fast quenching but I have cracked O1 in thicker section by quenching into oils that were too fast for it. It all can be plugged into the discussion we had here about lowering the stress level and making happier martensite.

One other question....you mentioned that you like seeing what W2 will do as far as "patterning" even without using clay. How can you get a "hamon" if you do a total interrrupted quench?

Hamon is the effect of a pearlite/martensite interface and transition zone, it is determined at the 1000F. mark much more than the 400F mark, and at that point the operation is the same. Curvature can be affected by rates of martensite formation but the hammon effects are pearlitic (some other things but that is another discussion entirely).
 
I searched for this book after coming across Kevin Cashen's recommendation for it in this thread. There are 4 publication dates (not "editions", as I read it): 1984, 1992, 1999, and 2005. Does anyone know if a person would be better off with a 2005 or 1999 copy rather than one of earlier publication date?

Mike Krall
 
There is a lot of really good information in this thread, particularly in the first half of it. And it contains a lot of condensed wisdom from our esteemed Mr. Cashen and others that I usually need to read more than once, so I've kept this thread bookmarked. The forum is kind of slow today so I figured I'd bump it back up to the top.
 
I had no idea this thread existed, thanx Nathan. I feel like an idiot becuase I thought that the tricks we're all in the tempering. I never knew a fine pearlite would act like martensite. Boy, have I been schooled on quenching. I am most thankful for the education.:thumbup: So this opens a question about the blacksmith knifemakers. I hold some of these guys in the highest regard for there art work and contribution back to the community. I believe there knives to be outstanding examples of what can be done with very limited resouces, to create a functional blade. But the quenching methods they teach (ATF / corn oil) according to this may not be achieving full martensitic transformation, and only hitting a fine grained pearlite structure with some martensite in the thinnest part of the blade. so what would be a good oil for me to use with those 2 steels? Where can I obtain it? ... if it has been answered & I missed it I apologise.
 
off topic (maybe not) but if it is please feel free to delete!

if someone does'nt mind, can you explain what:

pearlite, martensite are?

also, does ANYONE use plain old water or horse piss or ATF anymore to quench? pros cons?

and recently i read somewhere about soaking blades in liquid nitrogen for several weeks,'apparently" it can change the grain structure to a very fine grain? am i wrong here?
 
This is a quick and dirty answer to Bushman5's question, I found the info rather easily and thought I'd post it

Austenite Information: http://www.msm.cam.ac.uk/phase-trans/2004/retained.austenite.html


Martensite information http://www.msm.cam.ac.uk/phase-trans/2002/martensite.html

Bainite Information http://www.msm.cam.ac.uk/phase-trans/2002/bainite.html

Pearlite is a two-phased, lamellar (or layered) structure composed of alternating layers of alpha-ferrite (88 wt%) and cementite (12%) that occurs in some steels and cast irons. It forms by a eutectoid reaction as austenite is slowly cooled below 727°C. The eutectoid composition of Austenite is approximately 0.77% carbon [1]; steel with less carbon content will contain a corresponding proportion of relatively pure ferrite crystallites that do not participate in the eutectoid reaction and cannot transform into pearlite.

The appearance of pearlite under the microscope resembles mother of pearl (also a lamellar structure), from which it takes its name.

A similar structure with lamelle much smaller than the wavelength of visible light lacks this pearlescent appearance. Called bainite, it is prepared by more rapid cooling. Unlike pearlite, whose formation involves the diffusion of all atoms, bainite grows by a displacive transformation mechanism.

Martensite, named after the German metallurgist Adolf Martens (1850–1914), is any crystal structure that is formed by displacive transformation, as opposed to much slower diffusive transformations. It includes a class of hard minerals occurring as lathe- or plate-shaped crystal grains. When viewed in cross-section, the lenticular (lens-shaped) crystal grains appear acicular (needle-shaped), which is how they are sometimes incorrectly described. "Martensite" most commonly refers to a very hard constituent of steel (the alloy of iron and carbon) important in some tool steels. The martensite is formed by rapid cooling (quenching) of austenite which traps carbon atoms that do not have time to diffuse out of the crystal structure.

In the 1890s, Martens studied samples of different steels under a microscope, and found that the hardest steels had a regular crystalline structure. He was the first to explain the cause of the widely differing mechanical properties of steels. Martensitic structures have since been found in many other practical materials, including shape memory alloys and transformation-toughened ceramics.

Martensite has a different crystalline structure (tetragonal) than the face-centered-cubic austenite from which it is formed, but identical chemical or alloy composition. The transition between these two structures requires very little thermal activation energy because it occurs displacively or martensiticly by the subtle but rapid rearrangement of atomic positions, and has been known to occur even at cryogenic temperatures. Martensite has a lower density than austenite, so that the martensitic transformation results in a relative change of volume:[1] this can be seen vividly in the Japanese katana, which is straight before quenching. Differential quenching causes martensite to form predominantly in the edge of the blade rather than the back; as the edge expands, the blade takes on a gently curved shape.

Martensite is not shown in the equilibrium phase diagram of the iron-carbon system because it is a metastable phase, the kinetic product of rapid cooling of steel containing sufficient carbon. Since chemical processes (the attainment of equilibrium) accelerate at higher temperature, martensite is easily destroyed by the application of heat. This process is called tempering. In some alloys, the effect is reduced by adding elements such as tungsten that interfere with cementite nucleation, but, more often than not, the phenomenon is exploited instead. Since quenching can be difficult to control, many steels are quenched to produce an overabundance of martensite, then tempered to gradually reduce its concentration until the right structure for the intended application is achieved. Too much martensite leaves steel brittle, too little leaves it soft.


Martensitic transformation: mysterious properties explained
The difference between austenite and martensite is, in some ways, quite small: while the unit cell of austenite is, on average, a perfect little cube, the transformation to martensite sees this cube distorted by interstitial carbon atoms that do not have time to diffuse out during displacive transformation, so that it is a tiny bit longer than before in one dimension and a little bit shorter in the other two. The mathematical description of the two structures is quite different, for reasons of symmetry (see external links), but the chemical bonding remains very similar. Unlike cementite, which has bonding reminiscent of ceramic materials, the hardness of martensite is difficult to explain in chemical terms.

The explanation hinges on the crystal's subtle change in dimension. Even a microscopic crystallite is millions of unit cells long. Since all of these units face the same direction, distortions of even a fraction of a percent become magnified into a major mismatch between neighboring materials. The mismatch is sorted out by the creation of a myriad of crystal defects, in a process reminiscent of work hardening. As in work-hardened steel, these defects prevent atoms from sliding past one another in an organized fashion, causing the material to become harder.

Shape memory alloy also has surprising mechanical properties, that were eventually explained by an analogy to martensite. Unlike the iron-carbon system, alloys in the nickel-titanium system can be chosen that make the "martensitic" phase thermodynamically stable.


Pseudomartensitic transformation
In addition to displacive transformation and diffusive transformation, a new phase transformation that involves displasive sublattice transition and atomic diffusion was discovered by Chen et al.[2] using modern diffraction technique. The new transformation mechanism has been christened by the scientists Pseudomartensitic transformation.[3].
 
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