screwy idea for tempering

This is how a good "learning" thread should go.

Joe should ask "screwy" questions more often if it'll help teach us this much.

Thanks, Joe!:thumbup:
And, thank you, Kevin! :thumbup:
 
fitzo said:
This is how a good "learning" thread should go.

Joe should ask "screwy" questions more often if it'll help teach us this much.

Thanks, Joe!:thumbup:
And, thank you, Kevin! :thumbup:
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What you said!! We're going to have to take up a collection and buy Kevin a new keyboard, or maybe a program where he just talks and the 'puter does the work!
 
Kevin R. Cashen said:
Of the two steels the 5160 will give higher toughness when optimally heat treated, while the W2 will give much better edge holding when given the same. Recommended austenitizing temperature for 5160 is 1525F., quench into a medium speed oil and interrupt at Ms. I have a continuous cooling curve fro 5160 that shows Ms to be around 550F, so you have a little more margin of error on the high side. Don’t fiddle around with the cooling; just allow it to cool on its own in the air. If you see any warps, feel free to put on gloves and gently push it back straight, as you get above 50% martensite formation you will notice that it will resist your “guidance” more and more, it is telling you to leave it alone- listen to it.

When the steel is cold to the touch get it immediately to the temper and heat it above 250F ASAP to avoid any problems. You will should note see any significant drop in hardness until you get over 350-375F. how far you go above this is determined by what you want your final hardness/toughness to be. 400F seems to work well but more toughness can be gained by going a little higher. Temper at least twice, as the cycling seems to have a very good equalizing upon the steel, and may even zap any retained austenite there could be.

The austenitizing temp fro W2 will depend on the carbon content and there is a range in this steel but 1450-1475F should work well. Higher temperatures will results in deeper hardening. Use a very quick oil for this steel, Ms is closer to 400F than the 5160. Temper as soon as possible. You may need to temper well above 400F in order to get toughness out of this stuff because it gets HARD. How high to go is entirely dependant on the heat it was quenched at and how much effect you had on the carbon and those wonderful little vanadium carbides, I wish I could be more specific but here is where you need to fine tune it for your particular situation.




I personally never edge quench my own blades, I could go into the underlying dynamics, causes and effects that brings me to that decision and really hack off many reading this thread and probably start a genuine old fashioned poop slinger, so let’s just say I have my reasons.

I use hamons and temper lines for aesthetic purposes only, they can be quick beautiful, but when I do them I feel using a full quench with clay controlling them to make a much better product. That being said I must now also stress that interrupting an edge quench or only putting the edge of a red hot blade into 400F oil would be miserable at best and disastrous at worst.
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Thank you once again, sir!!!! I got the W2 from Don Hanson and he suggested 450F for tempering......or 475, if i plan on using it for a JS test knife. This batch of W2 is old GM body panel former tool stock and tests out at a bit over 1% carbon. Don warned me that it gets super hard even in oil....like 65.....and will get a few points higher than that in water or brine. What do you use for quenching clay? I have a 5 lb bag of Satanite that is gathering dust and i know that this W2 has the potential for a REALLY nice hamon.
 
Kevin R. Cashen said:
I have to take the opportunity to stress once again that I am not handing out any big secrets here,
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Pardon me, Kevin, but you're mistaken here. These ARE big secrets to us -- to anyone in this realm of metalwork.

None of the current books or texts (excepting a few such as Verhoeven's paper) explain any of this information critically. Most haven't been updated or revised to show the new and different thinking of the authors that wrote [what we regard as] the Holy Texts of Knifemaking. For crying out loud, a few months back I paid almost $100 for a pair of highly-regarded books that still promote EDGE PACKING!!!!!
:barf: :barf: :barf:


AAAAAARRRRRRGGGGHHHHHH!!!

I know you know this. I know you're doing your part to correct this. We've spoken about this.

You need to write a book on YOUR preferred methods of heat treating steels, and why you've reached the conclusions you have. If you're worried about making it accessible for rapid editing as your tests and theories evolve and progress, make it available in a digital format (a la Verhoeven?), and provide 'revision modules' for a modest fee.

I read too many of theses threads. In the span of time required to have you repeat yourself over and over and over (for my benefit, as well as everyone else's -- don't get me wrong, I'm greatly indebted to you, and I know it!) on threads like this, we could be compiling a de-facto work on the processes.

And no, I haven't called your lovely bride about this yet, but perhaps I should be... that way the 'stereo nagging' might finally browbeat you into submission!


Alright, I'm off the soapbox now. But come on! I've been good... I haven't called you out on this in at LEAST 45 days!:D
 
great thread. First thing I jumped to this morning.
Anyone can answer this that knows -
Medium oil - fast oil?
I'm using Tex."A" for my 5160 and have gathered that this is a medium speed oil.
What would qualify as a "fast" oil for the W series 1 and 2?
 
Karl, here's that list Fox posted back in April. Maybe Kevin's still got an extra bucket of Parks #50:

LIST REMOVED. READ ON TO SEE WHY.

For reference, Kevin had told me (IIRC), use Parks AAA for the likes of O1 and #50 for 1095.
 
aww heck me too
snip..............................................................................snip
 
MrPurple said:
You need to write a book on YOUR preferred methods of heat treating steels, and why you've reached the conclusions you have.
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I agree!

I suspect Kevin might point to the fact that what he preaches is readily available in metallurgy books (some of which are pretty easy reading, others ...well ....) and that he's already 'published' a great deal of information on the net, etc.,

...but I agree, there is a place for a 'real' bound METALLURGY BOOK specifically tailored to knives/knifemaking.
 
If Kevin wrote a book on his findings and the science behind them I would buy it in heart beat, and I havn't made a knife yet. Steven
 
It's okay to beat the piss out of me for starting this, Kevin... I'm good at getting hit! (Maybe you remember seeing my nose...:D )
 
fitzo said:
Karl, here's that list Fox posted back in April. Maybe Kevin's still got an extra bucket of Parks #50:

Parks/Heatbath #50 = Unknown
Exxon Fenso 90 = 8.6
Exxon Fenso 150 = 9.0
McMaster-Carr High Speed = 10.0
Brownell's Tough Quench @ 150 F - 10.0
Chevron/Texaco Quenchtex C = 10.5
Shell Voluta H302 = 10.7
Parks/Heatbath "AAA" = Unknown
Exxon Fenso M200A = 11.0
Brownell's Tough Quench @ 200 F - 11.0
Brownell's Tough Quench @ 100 F - 11.5
Parks/Heatbath #400 = Unknown
Shell Voluta H301 = 13.5
Chevron/Texaco Quenchtex B = 16.0
Exxon Fenso 250 = 17.2
Chevron/Texaco Quenchtex A = 20.0
McMaster-Carr Standard = 28.0
Shell Voluta H201 = 28.0
Shell Voluta VH401 = 34

For reference, Kevin had told me (IIRC), use Parks AAA for the likes of O1 and #50 for 1095.
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Excellent.....looks like my ToughQunch is borderline fast oil

:D
 
Deweyknives said:
...I've been working my way thru the on-line book by John Verhoeven, is there any books on these lines that you highly recommend? Remember, it has to be in terms that a hammerhead can understand. I'de like to get a little deeper into "cause & affect" as long as I don't have to research every third word. Save you some typing time also...
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Throughout human history when people have a hard time wrapping their minds around something or explaining things beyond their normal observations, they will resort to mysticism or allow their imagination to fill in the gaps in more exciting ways, much is the same with many modern knifemakers, unfortunately. But other than a good marketing angle, we have fewer excuses than those in history since most of this stuff has been observed and explained, and quite in depth I would add. The Verhoeven book alone is more than enough to blow just about any of the well polished B.S. commonly encountered among bladesmiths, right out of the water, and I recommend it. While it is much closer to being understandable to “Bladesmiths and others who heat treat and forge steel” than his other writings that I have, it still could be daunting to folks new to the universe inside our steel so a good preparatory primer could be of benefit and without a doubt I would say that the best book I have found that explains this stuff for anybody to understand without insulting your intelligence, or short changing you on information, is “Metallurgy Fundamentals” by Daniel Brandt.
 
jdm61 said:
... What do you use for quenching clay? I have a 5 lb bag of Satanite that is gathering dust and i know that this W2 has the potential for a REALLY nice hamon.
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A lot of mythology has been built up around magic secret formulas for the clay for hamon making; for the most part it is so much chest puffing by folks who want a marketing angle. Controlling temper lines (another huge misnomer) is a complex, individual learning curve of trial and error. Each person develops their own mixes and techniques over time to suit their particular quirks and conditions. Once again I believe variables are killers to understanding a process, so I prefer simplicity over complexity when learning a process. I like furnace cement.

I have done tests using furnace cement compared to satanite with ashi lines from both on the same blade (1/2 of blade satanite, 1/2 in furnace cement) and I found the black furnace cement to be a much better insulator, keeping tighter definition of the hamon. I also like the stuff because you can buy it anywhere, local Walmart, Menards, hardware etc… It applies very nicely like cake frosting, and sticks very well even trough the heating. When all goes well I have been able to keep the stuff well stuck all the way though the process and then a quick “tunk” on the spine with a wooden dowel will pop it off both sides of the blade. A wire brush will clean off the rest.

I love the hamons W2 makes, and some of my favorites with this steel are from just quenching in oil with no clay and letting it do its own thing.
 
fitzo said:
Karl, here's that list Fox posted back in April. Maybe Kevin's still got an extra bucket of Parks #50:

Parks/Heatbath #50 = Unknown
Exxon Fenso 90 = 8.6
Exxon Fenso 150 = 9.0
McMaster-Carr High Speed = 10.0
Brownell's Tough Quench @ 150 F - 10.0
Chevron/Texaco Quenchtex C = 10.5
Shell Voluta H302 = 10.7
Parks/Heatbath "AAA" = Unknown
Exxon Fenso M200A = 11.0
Brownell's Tough Quench @ 200 F - 11.0
Brownell's Tough Quench @ 100 F - 11.5
Parks/Heatbath #400 = Unknown
Shell Voluta H301 = 13.5
Chevron/Texaco Quenchtex B = 16.0
Exxon Fenso 250 = 17.2
Chevron/Texaco Quenchtex A = 20.0
McMaster-Carr Standard = 28.0
Shell Voluta H201 = 28.0
Shell Voluta VH401 = 34
...
Click to expand...

I don’t want to take this thread in another funky direction but those numbers to the side of the oils that Fitzo posted correspond to quench speeds determined in standard forms of testing, the most common of which is the nickel ball test. In that test the numbers represents the seconds it takes to go from the austenitizing heat to the Currie point of nickel, at which the 1” nickel ball with a temperature probe inside will attract a magnet. So the lower the number the faster the oil, from the numbers I have I believe Park #50 is the fastest on the list so compare that to the other end of the spectrum and determine where you may want to be in there. Several of the medium speed oils I have encountered have an “A” designation in the name.

Steels needing fast oils are: any 10XX steel, W1, W2, 15n20
Steels needing medium speed oils: 52100, 5160, O1, L6 etc...

But on the other hand talking about oil speeds does take us back to whether one can quench into any heated oil…


Oh, sorry but I am at the bottom of my supply of #50 for a while, perhaps I will pick up some more in a few months.
 
Kevin R. Cashen said:
I don’t want to take this thread in another funky direction but those numbers to the side of the oils that Fitzo posted correspond to quench speeds determined in standard forms of testing, the most common of which is the nickel ball test. In that test the numbers represents the seconds it takes to go from the austenitizing heat to the Currie point of nickel, at which the 1” nickel ball with a temperature probe inside will attract a magnet. So the lower the number the faster the oil, from the numbers I have I believe Park #50 is the fastest on the list so compare that to the other end of the spectrum and determine where you may want to be in there. Several of the medium speed oils I have encountered have an “A” designation in the name.
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Thanks for pointing that out, Kevin! I failed to say it was for relative comparison. :o I knew it was a standard test method and just didn't even think of the fact folks might think it was times for a blade. My bad, my apology. All the years in the lab I just take for granted that comparisons are based on testing that often has little relation to real world activites. it's generated a certain mindset. Mongo say, "Assumptions bad thing!" Sorry to any who I confused.
 
MrPurple said:
Well dodged, Kevin... very well, I'll back off.

Again.

For now.
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It is the nature of internet forums for topics to be rehashed infinitely, ad nauseum. I have seen many of the well known experienced smiths fade out of the various boards from weariness of answering the same questions over and over. The volumes you have seen from me in this thread is the result of several factors, the first being that I was on the road all day yesterday so sitting down and typing last night after I got home was actually relaxation time for me. But my attitude has also changed since the beginning of this thread (as Fitzo can attest to from our off-forum conversations) because I had a realization. While there is a turnover in knowledgeable old timers on these forums we need to remember that there are also influxes of fresh, new, folks hungry for information and filled with an infectious enthusiasm. After years of “been there, done that” you get jaded to the fantastic nature of this medium and one thing that can snap you out of ennui is watching the light bulb blink on over the head of a guy who is putting it together for the first time. In that instant something stirs inside you in much the same way a fleeting scent can take you back to a moment in your childhood when the whole world was so cool and needed to be explored. After 20+ years of doing it professionally this gig is more a job than play, discussions like this help keep it fresh.

Call me a crusader but getting as much of this information to people like you folks in this thread is one of my passions because when I was getting started there were no Verhoeven pdf’s . I got funneled right into that channel of traditional bladesmithing wisdom that had me doing all the odd things you have heard to make knives that would do all kinds of irrelevant things. I fumbled in darkness until the claims got so far out there that I finally was forced to hold all of these methods and results up to the physical laws that the rest of the universe works under, and that is when the light shining through them revealed them to be more full of holes than a polyester tee-shirt after forge welding.

I felt betrayed but I also wanted to check the source of this light that was shining through those holes and when I did I found the real facts to be even more interesting and magical than the superstitious tripe I had been fed. But the coolest thing of all was that the real facts would allow me to expand and grow beyond anything I had been doing.

You see mystic marketing is designed to put gurus up on pedestals and lock you into the methods that only they are experts in, this insures a long career for them as the sole font of wisdom in a discipline that they themselves invented, and can simply change the rules on whenever there is a danger of folks getting wise to it. This special wisdom can be had for a price because, believe me, you aren’t going to find it anywhere else, while good sound metallurgical data is abundantly free for the taking. Really think about this - there are plenty knifemakers marketing information on their “unique” techniques while John Verhoeven puts a whole book of great information on the internet for anyone to download for free. Ask yourself what you think the primary motivation is behind these two examples.

I actually do wince every time I hear “Kevin says”. If, for instance, somebody states something like “steel contracts when it forms martensite”, and the only answer you have is “Kevin Cashen says it expands”, then you have a very weak argument compared to the unassailable response of “it is basic fact that the BCT configuration of martensite is massively more expansive than austenite, this statement is false, unless you can change those facts”. knowledge is power! Follow the leader is just a convenient form of ignorance.

As you well know I have portions of a book on my computer, but you folks could have done the studying and wrote your own books by the time I could get it organized abou it in any way.:(
 
Kevin R. Cashen said:
..... without a doubt I would say that the best book I have found that explains this stuff for anybody to understand without insulting your intelligence, or short changing you on information, is “Metallurgy Fundamentals” by Daniel Brandt.
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I'd like to see you do a book like "Metallurgy Fundamentals"--with more of a knife-specific tack---venturing into a little more intermediate information as it applies to knife-specific applications.

For some reason there seem to be a lot of knife guys that will find even "Metallurgy Fundamentals" too academic/theoretical only because it's not nailed down directly to their interest--knives. Others might shy away because it looks a little like a text book and says "metallurgy" on the cover.

Put some knives on the cover and re-mix that book so it's knife-o-cetric and it'd reach a lot of folks.
 
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