screwy idea for tempering

[Kevin R. Cashen]

Thanks for pointing that out, Kevin! I failed to say it was for relative comparison. I knew it was a standard test method and just didn't even think of the fact folks might think it was times for a blade. My bad, my apology. All the years in the lab I just take for granted that comparisons are based on testing that often has little relation to real world activites. it's generated a certain mindset. Mongo say, "Assumptions bad thing!" Sorry to any who I confused.

No critique about information or how it may compare, I just thought I would add that so folks could wrap their minds around the numbers in determining which oil may be best for their desires.

 

[Karl B. Andersen]

"Steels needing fast oils are: any 10XX steel, W1, W2, 15n20
Steels needing medium speed oils: 52100, 5160, O1, L6 etc..."

So, would some Tough Quench, @ 11.0, suffice for a "fast oil"? I'm doing my first W1 blade. For a full hardening, would I warm it up a little bit? 150?

 

[jdm61]

Rant on, Kevin!!! I will be trying your interupted quench technique on a burly little W2/African blackwood interpretation of a pilot's survival knife sometime this week. If I don't screw it up, I plan to see if i can get it in the hands of some needy young soldier. So........the health safety and welfare of a young trooper is in your hands, Mr. Cashen........you think business end first for 5 seconds in 150 degree Brownell's Tough Quench should do it? As for the discussion at hand, i have been inspired by this threads and your writings to pen a long winded philosophical scree about what we do and how and why we do it. I find it fascinating that we are applying science, engineering, etc to what is essentially a hybidization of simple tool making and applied art. Your lab was one of the things that inspired me. I can almost see you in their wearing those birth control goggles that you were wearing in the pics from Ashokan and peering into a microscope and collecting all of this emprical data............and then going back to the shop to finish a highly embellished 19th century French small sword.....strange hobby/business, this knifemaking gig:thumbup:

 

[jdm61]

"Steels needing fast oils are: any 10XX steel, W1, W2, 15n20
Steels needing medium speed oils: 52100, 5160, O1, L6 etc..."

So, would some Tough Quench, @ 11.0, suffice for a "fast oil"? I'm doing my first W1 blade. For a full hardening, would I warm it up a little bit? 150?

When i bought my W2 from Don Hanson, he said that the Tough Quench at 150 should do fine. Guess we both will find out soon enough

 

[Deweyknives]

So glad to hear that you don't find this to be drudgery and agrivating. I am ,for one,one of those who's light blinked on,and it shines brighter with every post.

For me,I think the most important statement made was about "know what you want from your blades". So much emphasis is made on the ABS tests and the amazement that it can be done that it's easy to be lead down a "one lane road". As a mechanic/body man/fabricator for 25 years,I know there's a proper tool for every job. I should have been smart enough to realize that in the world of knives also! Taking the time to share your knowledge with all who wish to read it is truely inspirational!! A book on Metalurgy as pertaining to Knifemaking is not a bad idea!!

Any plans for Ashokane for '07 being made yet?

 

[Kevin R. Cashen]

...Any plans for Ashokan for '07 being made yet?

I was just on the phone with Tim the other day and we bounced some ideas around. But I would like to let you know that TODAY IS YOUR LUCKY DAY and your oportutnity to get what you want at Ashokan!

We aim to please so throw some suggestions at me! We often ask but seldom get much input.

I must say that we are excited about Ashokan, as this year saw an infusion of fresh energy and many enthusiastic new faces. We still have the regulars and couldn't make it without them, but the great folks who came this year and gave all this wonderfull feedback has us ready to crank it up a notch!

 

[fitzo]

...... But I would like to let you know that TODAY IS YOUR LUCKY DAY and your oportutnity to get what you want at Ashokan!.......

I would love to see a foto of you and Tim doing one of your lectures in those glasses with the plastic nose and furry eyebrows and mustache.

That kind of lucky???

PS...I'll understand if you choose to simply ignore me! After two days of this thread, I needed a moment's levity! Carry on.......

 

[Matthew Gregory]

It is the nature of internet forums for topics to be rehashed infinitely, ad nauseum. I have seen many of the well known experienced smiths fade out of the various boards from weariness of answering the same questions over and over. (

I'm sorry if I'm contributing to this effect for you, Kevin. It is absolutely NOT my intention --which I hope you already know!

I think I'll wait until called upon, from here on in...

 

[Karl B. Andersen]

I was just on the phone with Tim the other day and we bounced some ideas around. But I would like to let you know that TODAY IS YOUR LUCKY DAY and your oportutnity to get what you want at Ashokan!

Can we get somebody to demo some Silver Wire Inlay? (in handles, that is)

 

[Karl B. Andersen]

When i bought my W2 from Don Hanson, he said that the Tough Quench at 150 should do fine. Guess we both will find out soon enough

Soon as I'm done with my Christmas orders I'll be doing both W1 and 2 hunters and a fighter. Glad I already have some TQ on hand.
This thread has gone on and on, and it has been a good one. I was thinking yesterday, while milling out a guard, how many things I use in each knife that I have learned from someone willing to share - whether it be the profile I grind that I learned from Ed Fowler, how I assemble my take-down knives I learned from Jerry Rados, what I learened from Bailey Bradshaw and Bruce Fuller at the Intro Course, when I heat treat I use what I have learned from Kevin Cashen and Tim Zowada, Don Hanson has been giving me his help in my W1 and 2, at the beginning of my forging career Bill Burke gave me some on-line tutoring, not to mention my texaco "A", then I've been pulled out of the muck time and time again by Fitzo and Mete, this year I learned my hand-sanding techniques from Don Fogg - my GoD! The list goes on.
In other words, when I'm in there in my shop working on a knife, I'm not alone - I'm in damn good company!

 

[Deweyknives]

Very nice tribute, Karl. As I work on my pieces, I often think about where I learned a technique or procedure. The limits of my knowledge have come from reading [& understanding] what I can get ahold of and then go try it. Try this, try that and develop my own way. You're fortunate to have so many mentors.

That brings me to Kevin's reply pertaining to Ashokane. I've never had the oppertunity to hang out with guy's who've "been there,done that". Just being able to attend would be a great benifit to me. If I know the dates, I'll do all I can to attend!!

 

[Kevin Davey]

Karl, here's that list Fox posted back in April. Maybe Kevin's still got an extra bucket of Parks #50:

Parks/Heatbath #50 = Unknown
Exxon Fenso 90 = 8.6
Exxon Fenso 150 = 9.0
McMaster-Carr High Speed = 10.0
Brownell's Tough Quench @ 150 F - 10.0
Chevron/Texaco Quenchtex C = 10.5
Shell Voluta H302 = 10.7
Parks/Heatbath "AAA" = Unknown
Exxon Fenso M200A = 11.0
Brownell's Tough Quench @ 200 F - 11.0
Brownell's Tough Quench @ 100 F - 11.5
Parks/Heatbath #400 = Unknown
Shell Voluta H301 = 13.5
Chevron/Texaco Quenchtex B = 16.0
Exxon Fenso 250 = 17.2
Chevron/Texaco Quenchtex A = 20.0
McMaster-Carr Standard = 28.0
Shell Voluta H201 = 28.0
Shell Voluta VH401 = 34

For reference, Kevin had told me (IIRC), use Parks AAA for the likes of O1 and #50 for 1095.

Those 'speed' figures are only representitve at the test temperature used. Varying the oil temperature can make differences to the speed of the quench(changing the viscosity), and can turn what may be considered a 'slow'quench into one that is much faster.

Interestingly, its possible that the results published above may not all be conducted uaing the same bench mark .....as an example....I have spec sheets on several quench oils and where one oil (Chevron 70) has the media starting temperature at 104F (speed of 10.5), Parks AAA show it as 140F (between 9-11 seconds) ....Just comparing speeds one may think that the performance is very close..BUT, one oil was 40F warmer.



I use Chevron 70 quench oil......it was the most easily convenient oil I could purchase (50 gallons a few miles down the road)....However, I would have been just as happy with either Parks AAA, Texaco A, B or C, Brownells, Shell, Exxon, or McMasters....

 

[fitzo]

Well, that's really important clarification, Kevin. If the test isn't industry standardized then the numbers aren't relative, which renders data comparison worse than meaningless. Not wanting to be an agent of ambiguity, I for one won't repost that list again. Thanks.

Edited to add: again, apologies for the confusions I created reposting the list. Won't happen again. I removed it from my initial post and added a caveat. People can see the data in the quotes if they desire. Hopefully they'll pay as much attention to the disambiguation the Kevins provided.

 

[Kevin R. Cashen]

I agree as it pertains to comparing differing brands by different manufacturers. Who is to say that one manufacturer had the same conditions in their testing as the next? Each manufacturer should be able to provide you with information that includes the optimum temperature for that oil and the speed tests should be done at that temperature, so if they publish a test number that was not done at the proper temperature for the oil then they have shot themselves in the foot.

However different speed oils, for differnt applications, are made by the same manufacturers and the chances of the comparative numbers being obtained under equal circumstances should be pretty good in this instance. I have been using Park #50 and Park AAA for some time now, The #50 gets used on 1095 and 1084, the AAA gets used on O1 and L6 or the occasioonal 5160. These are indeed two different oils made for two diffent quench speed applications and no amount of heating is going to get one to approximate the other.

 

[jdm61]

Interesting stuff, Kevin. Now for another question. I can surmise that if you use a "slow" oil on a "fast" steel" you may have issues with it not hardening properly. But what if you use a "fast" oil on a medium or slow steel? Will using a relatively fast oil like Brownells at say 100 instead of 150 on 5160 really cause problems? 5160 is the only stell I have that is not "fast". I have lots of W2 and 1075 and plan to use on or the other with 15n20 when I start trying to pattern weld. But the little bit of 5160 i have is nice stuff, so i plan to use it.
One other question....you mentioned that you like seeing what W2 will do as far as "patterning" even without using clay. How can you get a "hamon" if you do a total interrrupted quench?

 

[Karl B. Andersen]

How about the fact that right on the label of TQ it says -"DO NOT HEAT", yet a lot of people use it at 150.
Does it lose some of its cooling properties when hot?

 

[Kevin Davey]

I have an advertising memo from an oil company which describes their product as follows...


" (Brand X) is recommended where maximum hardness is not a requirement'"

Any guess which brand oil I am referring to?

 

[Phillip Patton]

Texaco type A.
I think Shell uses about the same wording to describe their H201, which is what I have, and is pretty much identical to type A.

 

[jdm61]

How about the fact that right on the label of TQ it says -"DO NOT HEAT", yet a lot of people use it at 150.
Does it lose some of its cooling properties when hot?

according to the chart it gains at 150 and loses speed at 100 and 200...interesting.

 

[Karl B. Andersen]

I have an advertising memo from an oil company which describes their product as follows...


" (Brand X) is recommended where maximum hardness is not a requirement'"

Any guess which brand oil I am referring to?

I'll still bet that at the dimensions we're dealing with - only a couple hundred thousanths thick - 5160 gets hard! I even stated earlier that sometimes I have a hard time sanding my scratches out. My cutting edge these days is INCREDIBLE!