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- Dec 26, 2010
- Messages
- 1,091
You just make a tool that fits the conical shape and attach that to your press head.
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Sebenza 25 construction flaw? (Nope, not a flaw, read inside)
- Thread starter vininull
- Start date
- Joined
- May 26, 2008
- Messages
- 5,605
One side is male, the other is female. The outside of the female side is fitted to the hole in the blade.
- Joined
- Oct 21, 2011
- Messages
- 72
I think you nailed it! We don't know what the future plans are for the 25. Could very well be a problem that has been encountered already (i.e. trouble with spa treatment, vendor/machining problems, cost effectiveness) or he could very well be avoiding foreseeable future problems (i.e. anodizing, inlays). I read that another quality maker just changed the stop pin location to accommodate different blade profiles in the future. IMO, The man who strives for perfection with his products, given the insanely tight tolerances and attention to EVERY detail, doesn't strike me as a man who would fix something that isn't broken just because it cost a little less.
As far as the flat surface on the stop pin, I do believe (and may very well be wrong) that due to the increased blade thickness (adding weight) and fitting the overall "more robust" theme to the 25, there needed to be a larger stop pin. The stop pin doesn't look like it can be moved any farther away from the pivot because there is not enough edge distance from the edge of ti slab to the stop pin location. Just my $.02.
Sorry to resurrect an older thread but it was the most relevant to my issue. I received a Sebenza 25 earlier this week and my stop pin rotated the first day! I basically figured out the problem myself after taking the knife apart and seeing the tang nick the stop because it rotated a fraction. But I'm still scratching my head at why its able to rotate at all, making it so the customer has to do very precise reassembly to ensure the proper tolerances and orientation with the notch. Some sort of sunken notch would make sense as others have said. Anyway, after loctite it hasn't had the same issue during the past several days. Everything else about the knife is pretty great. Mine has a Feb 2014 manufacturing date FYI.
Also as far as I can tell CR doesn't have reassembly instructions for the 25 on his site or anywhere. So that could be helpful too. If the customer has to perfectly align the stop pin (which can be hard, as it spins when you screw it down) perhaps provide clear instructions on how to check and adjust for this.
Also as far as I can tell CR doesn't have reassembly instructions for the 25 on his site or anywhere. So that could be helpful too. If the customer has to perfectly align the stop pin (which can be hard, as it spins when you screw it down) perhaps provide clear instructions on how to check and adjust for this.
You aren't alone and the design has generated both praise and criticism from users. I fall into the latter. CRK strives for excellence, and they certainly deserve credit for the endless innovation, patents, steels, designs, features, and high quality tools they have given to users and the industry as a whole. They are without doubt an incredible company that reaches a degree of technical design that could only be described as amazing. But if they produce something with an area where people may struggle in, that should also be said as it is. Regardless of what this is called, its causing issues not seen on other Sebs. And as a consumer who finds the 25 as an amazing design and evolution of serious performance and quality, I find it to make the knife more difficult than previous Sebs.
Additionally, Chris Reeve's response to this left me feeling a little let down as I felt everyone could have benefitted from a slightly different response.
The wordy response below is to justify why I feel as I do and while this isn't a topic I like discussing, I think it is important for people to express their opinions on both what they like and do not like, and especially why as criticism or praise should have a reason (rather than an unjustified insult or accusation without supporting discussion.) Makers then have the option of utilizing customer feedback to improve their products and services, and I personally greatly appreciate when a maker does so as it lets me know that customers are valued and the maker is truly dedicated to those whom support their organization. If anyone feels my take on this is off base, by all means say it. I am just a single consumer with a single opinion, so take my personal opinion as one persons thoughts and reactions. By no means do I claim to be a book of facts or be above or below any other consumer sharing his or her thoughts.
Explanation of WHY I feel this way, in detail:
At least with my Sebenza 25, this issue has the ability to hinder the functional value of the knife if the stop pin rotates while the knife is closed or if reassembly does not set the stop pin correctly. The probability of that may be low, but it is not zero given there have been reports on this issue. Pins rotate, and even pins that are threaded or thread-locked can rotate. That's why we see the use of 'D' sockets with 'D' pins. While Chris Reeve is perhaps the most knowledgeable person in the entire world on knives, metal, and serious quality, that doesnt change the fact that some people are having issues with this design and are frustrated by the implications. Also, doesnt the fact that users are taking the knife apart increase the probability of this being an issue if users are not aware of it?
Yes, the use of the D stop pin will certainly decrease the stress of a HARD closure by increasing the surface area to absorb the energy (and reduce damage from shock). I have no doubt this was made intentionally for performance, but felt buyers arent getting the subsequent information they need and this is more my complaint than the design itself.
The first time I put my Seb 25 back together and it would not open, I was stumped and had to go fishing for information as I thought perhaps my stop pin was deformed or incorrect due to it being a D. No product literature they included noted any of this, nor did their website (which at the time said this was interference fit.) Given if a single pin rotates only a few millimeters that the functional usage of the item can be lost, I personally think that is critical for the maker to be absolutely positive that their owners understand this (and not the job of the owner when it comes to luxury goods.) Especially with a tool that may play a key role in a survival situation where functional reliability must be flawless and the users understanding in reassembly will have a direct impact on this.
The response to this thread left me a little letdown honestly; between the large & diverse clientele base, and how the maker has not noted on this, nor provided literature to my understanding, and how previous products have not been like this, I think the most effective and most positive way to address this issue is for the maker to distribute information to dealers and customers so they can understand this very small, but important, detail as such. If the problem is perceived, but still something some users run into, why not provide formal literature that people need to avoid this being an issue? (and to help with takedown given the Seb 25 has some notable differences from every Seb to date.)
The response that would leave me feeling thrilled as a valued customer would be closer to:
As you are aware, we strive for excellence in our products, and our designs are built using functional criteria. We design the Sebenza at a level of detail that would take manuals to explain every feature, but have an end result that the user benefits from, as it is a superior product that will last a lifetime. For various reasons, it is impossible to discuss all designs and reasoning behind them, but the specific issue you are referring to was indeed done in this way for a very specific functional purpose. Even though this is a functional design feature, we want to work to ensure owners understand how to correctly utilize it and the entire knife. As we are aware that there is a potential for this design feature to become problematic if the user is unaware of it, we are working to include literature with the product so users have formal information on how to ensure this is not an issue, and we are also setting up a page on our website to detail service of the Sebenza 25 given its distinct differences from previous model Sebenzas. We hope that this information will make usage easier and more enjoyment for our customers. Thank you for purchasing a Sebenza and think twice, cut once. If you have to think a third time, don't hesitate to call.
People tend to sometimes act like jerks when you are THE best and at the top, so I understand Chris Reeves reluctance to comment. And given how many people want to steal information and intellectual rights from CRK given the accomplishments they themselves have worked incredibly hard to achieve, I can understand not wanting to divulge in detail information that people with loose morals may steal. But that doesnt preclude being able to provide the information that users may need to avoid this issue. This same information would also make using the Seb 25 easier for less experienced users who would benefit from formal takedown instructions. So that's my take.
Additionally, Chris Reeve's response to this left me feeling a little let down as I felt everyone could have benefitted from a slightly different response.
The wordy response below is to justify why I feel as I do and while this isn't a topic I like discussing, I think it is important for people to express their opinions on both what they like and do not like, and especially why as criticism or praise should have a reason (rather than an unjustified insult or accusation without supporting discussion.) Makers then have the option of utilizing customer feedback to improve their products and services, and I personally greatly appreciate when a maker does so as it lets me know that customers are valued and the maker is truly dedicated to those whom support their organization. If anyone feels my take on this is off base, by all means say it. I am just a single consumer with a single opinion, so take my personal opinion as one persons thoughts and reactions. By no means do I claim to be a book of facts or be above or below any other consumer sharing his or her thoughts.
Explanation of WHY I feel this way, in detail:
At least with my Sebenza 25, this issue has the ability to hinder the functional value of the knife if the stop pin rotates while the knife is closed or if reassembly does not set the stop pin correctly. The probability of that may be low, but it is not zero given there have been reports on this issue. Pins rotate, and even pins that are threaded or thread-locked can rotate. That's why we see the use of 'D' sockets with 'D' pins. While Chris Reeve is perhaps the most knowledgeable person in the entire world on knives, metal, and serious quality, that doesnt change the fact that some people are having issues with this design and are frustrated by the implications. Also, doesnt the fact that users are taking the knife apart increase the probability of this being an issue if users are not aware of it?
Yes, the use of the D stop pin will certainly decrease the stress of a HARD closure by increasing the surface area to absorb the energy (and reduce damage from shock). I have no doubt this was made intentionally for performance, but felt buyers arent getting the subsequent information they need and this is more my complaint than the design itself.
The first time I put my Seb 25 back together and it would not open, I was stumped and had to go fishing for information as I thought perhaps my stop pin was deformed or incorrect due to it being a D. No product literature they included noted any of this, nor did their website (which at the time said this was interference fit.) Given if a single pin rotates only a few millimeters that the functional usage of the item can be lost, I personally think that is critical for the maker to be absolutely positive that their owners understand this (and not the job of the owner when it comes to luxury goods.) Especially with a tool that may play a key role in a survival situation where functional reliability must be flawless and the users understanding in reassembly will have a direct impact on this.
The response to this thread left me a little letdown honestly; between the large & diverse clientele base, and how the maker has not noted on this, nor provided literature to my understanding, and how previous products have not been like this, I think the most effective and most positive way to address this issue is for the maker to distribute information to dealers and customers so they can understand this very small, but important, detail as such. If the problem is perceived, but still something some users run into, why not provide formal literature that people need to avoid this being an issue? (and to help with takedown given the Seb 25 has some notable differences from every Seb to date.)
The response that would leave me feeling thrilled as a valued customer would be closer to:
As you are aware, we strive for excellence in our products, and our designs are built using functional criteria. We design the Sebenza at a level of detail that would take manuals to explain every feature, but have an end result that the user benefits from, as it is a superior product that will last a lifetime. For various reasons, it is impossible to discuss all designs and reasoning behind them, but the specific issue you are referring to was indeed done in this way for a very specific functional purpose. Even though this is a functional design feature, we want to work to ensure owners understand how to correctly utilize it and the entire knife. As we are aware that there is a potential for this design feature to become problematic if the user is unaware of it, we are working to include literature with the product so users have formal information on how to ensure this is not an issue, and we are also setting up a page on our website to detail service of the Sebenza 25 given its distinct differences from previous model Sebenzas. We hope that this information will make usage easier and more enjoyment for our customers. Thank you for purchasing a Sebenza and think twice, cut once. If you have to think a third time, don't hesitate to call.
People tend to sometimes act like jerks when you are THE best and at the top, so I understand Chris Reeves reluctance to comment. And given how many people want to steal information and intellectual rights from CRK given the accomplishments they themselves have worked incredibly hard to achieve, I can understand not wanting to divulge in detail information that people with loose morals may steal. But that doesnt preclude being able to provide the information that users may need to avoid this issue. This same information would also make using the Seb 25 easier for less experienced users who would benefit from formal takedown instructions. So that's my take.
- Joined
- May 31, 2013
- Messages
- 1,400
Easy answer. Loctite the blade stop screw on the lock side and don't remove it when disassembling for cleaning. Crisis averted.
- Joined
- Apr 9, 2009
- Messages
- 972
That's what I did. Worked like a charm.
I was unaware of the stop pin design the first time I re-assembled my seb 25, and it would not open. It took bout 30 seconds to spot the issue and another 30 to adjust and fix it. It's never moved since, or before on its own. I really don't see what the big deal is.
- Joined
- Dec 1, 2012
- Messages
- 1,379
I cannot believe there is this much discussion over using a dab of Locktite on something. Even something the price of a Sebenza 25 in the knife world.
It sure pales in significance to the price of an Airbus 380, or Boeing 747-400, or the various NASA space vehicles that have been made over the years that use Locktite in places it is needed but not practical to safety-wire a fastener to ensure it does not back out.
Or practically every racing motorcycle you see the in person at a race, or on television, or NASCAR, Indy or F1 cars.
Or the motorcycles in my garage, that have done 100+ miles an hour countless times - numerous times on practically every ride - and I've relied on Locktite every one of those times to keep certain parts from backing out on me. My life is at stake, the bikes get inspected before every ride and I've had no issues in the 15+ years I've been using the product.
So to put a dab on a single stop pin while carefully reassembling it seems so minor I am kinda shocked so many people get so worked up about it, to the point of trying to imply a Sebenza 25 is inferior to a 21 because of it. Or that it should perhaps be passed on until the design is changed because it is not so turn-key in a very few out of many cases. Have we gotten that cynical in this world?
I have two 25s, about to get a third and if I have to put a dab of Locktite on the stop pin on one of them to keep it from rotating after I clean it I could care less. It will do the job and life goes on. I might glance at it from time to time afterward, if I think to, but that is probably it.
What would your grandfather have done, if he had any mechanical ability at all?
He would have probably put a dab of Locktite on it, and went about his day knowing he would not have to concern himself with it until the next time, if even then, that he took the knife apart to clean it again. Which could be years, unless it quit opening to cut stuff!
And thought we were stupid for spending more time discussing something that could have been fixed in less time than it took for me to read through this entire thread and write this long-winded and admittedly cynical response!
It sure pales in significance to the price of an Airbus 380, or Boeing 747-400, or the various NASA space vehicles that have been made over the years that use Locktite in places it is needed but not practical to safety-wire a fastener to ensure it does not back out.
Or practically every racing motorcycle you see the in person at a race, or on television, or NASCAR, Indy or F1 cars.
Or the motorcycles in my garage, that have done 100+ miles an hour countless times - numerous times on practically every ride - and I've relied on Locktite every one of those times to keep certain parts from backing out on me. My life is at stake, the bikes get inspected before every ride and I've had no issues in the 15+ years I've been using the product.
So to put a dab on a single stop pin while carefully reassembling it seems so minor I am kinda shocked so many people get so worked up about it, to the point of trying to imply a Sebenza 25 is inferior to a 21 because of it. Or that it should perhaps be passed on until the design is changed because it is not so turn-key in a very few out of many cases. Have we gotten that cynical in this world?
I have two 25s, about to get a third and if I have to put a dab of Locktite on the stop pin on one of them to keep it from rotating after I clean it I could care less. It will do the job and life goes on. I might glance at it from time to time afterward, if I think to, but that is probably it.
What would your grandfather have done, if he had any mechanical ability at all?
He would have probably put a dab of Locktite on it, and went about his day knowing he would not have to concern himself with it until the next time, if even then, that he took the knife apart to clean it again. Which could be years, unless it quit opening to cut stuff!
And thought we were stupid for spending more time discussing something that could have been fixed in less time than it took for me to read through this entire thread and write this long-winded and admittedly cynical response!
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