Sebenza 25 construction flaw? (Nope, not a flaw, read inside)

I agree with ToddM. Lets say I get deployed to wherever in the world and I choose to take a Sebenza 25. You're telling me I have to worry about loc-tite and if I don't have some, there is the possibility of the knife to "malfunction"? Seriously? They got it right once, why not again?
 
The way I see it, the stop pin needs to be where it is in order to do just that... stop the blade and provide 1 of the 3 point locking system anchors that all liner/frame lock knives employ.

Secondly the stop pin needs to be the size that it is in order to provide the adequate strength CRK products are known for.

Since the geometry interferes with the movement of the blade, a notch needed to be cut.

As a result of that the stop pin must not be allowed to rotate, or it will contact the moving blade. Clearly Mr. Reeve himself realizes that an interference fit pin is not the best solution, and therefor has amended the design to include a tapped stop pin that accepts fastening screws on either side. That shows real care and humility. He was willing to accept that the original production design could be improved and he did so. It shows that he really strives to produce the finest product he can. If the new amended design is also fraught with occasional issues I'm sure he will address it as he sees fit. Thats progress. The knife is still relatively new and will need time to get dialed in. There have been quite a few design changes since it's release.

Personally I wouldn't mind applying a bit of Loctite to ensure the pin doesn't rotate, even on the fastened version. Do you complain that the engine in your car needs a head-gasket? No. Is it the best solution, probably not. But designing a interface that would not allow rotation (such as a hex pin and socket) would require a more complicated, costly, and time consuming manufacturing process and the cost will be passed right along to the consumer.

I do agree that CRK's customer service department is the quickest and most reliable source for information regarding a potential issue. But this is the CRK forum. What better place is there to discuss any queries about CRK's products? Some members here can also give excellent advice as well. This thread does have a negative tone, but nearly all those who have posted here are happy with their product, regardless of which revision they have. I know I am.
 
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One reason i've loved the 21 over a lot of other companies knives is because I don't have to use loctite. The screws never come loose. You could also try some teflon tape, just to see if that holds too.
 
After seeing a post from CRK and renewed discussion I would like to respond too.
There are numerous calls for me to send the knife in. In general I have nothing against it, BUT let's face it - there is no real solution for the issue except putting a loctite. Should I send the knife to an opposite side of the world and deal with local customs again,wait more than a month, just for CRK to put a loctite on a pin? Come on... I can do it myself.
At the bottom line I want to express my personal feeling as a long time Sebenza user and CRK customer:
Somewhere deep inside it gives me an alien and uncomfortable feeling when I see CRK knife that depends on a loctite. We experienced this loctite-independent design genius on a Classic/Regular/21 Sebenzas and I wish this legacy will persist. That's one of the features that we love these knives for after all - maximum simplicity and maximum comfort.
 
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Yes. It's ironic...or maybe not?...that it's so hard to make a knife so simple. :D It's all in getting things down to extremely fine tolerances. The classic (small "c," pre-25) Sebenza is in a class of its own.
 
OP- Please consider getting a friction folder. You will not find a more simple folder design. I edc one.
rolf
 
Lycosa said:
OP- Please consider getting a friction folder. You will not find a more simple folder design. I edc one.
rolf
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I see where you are implying but I don't see any usefulness in that. The simplicity of the Sebenza isn't only in a design but also in use. I don't like dangerous friction blade fixation in work.
Meanwhile enjoying good old BG-42 regular in my pocket ;)

20130710_123828.jpg
 
Thank you for clearing that up CRK.
I would rather not rely on loctite to hold a stop pin in place, so i'll stick with my 21.
This is something that customers want to know about, whether the company likes it or not.
 
I don't believe this is a construction flaw but it is more difficult to assemble now and if an inexperienced user/technical person stripped this knife he may not figure out why it doesn't close after assembling it. You cannot tighten the stop pin screw on the lock side without the pin rotating. I only just nipped the stop pin screw on the lock side then assembled the knife and tightened slowly one side at a time.
 
HuntBomb said:
Thank you for clearing that up CRK.
I would rather not rely on loctite to hold a stop pin in place, so i'll stick with my 21.
This is something that customers want to know about, whether the company likes it or not.
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This is why I chose not to go with an umnumzaan and now the 25. I've dealt with loctite on all other production folders. I hate it. No disrespect to crk at all, just personal opinion. But as a side note, I've consulted crk on mechanical issues before sharing them here, go to the source first. That's how rumors and assumptions start (as we know from school).
 
Vin- Thanks for the pic. You have one of the finest folders ever, right there. I HAD one! That's all you need!
For "simple",You might want to check out a Strider SnG also, if I may.
rolf
 
Just curious, why do you dislike Loctite?

I understand the feeling that using Loctite is somehow inferior to a well designed precision fit that holds on friction alone. But really, for any adjustable pivot, it's curtail that the pivot screw not move once you set it to the proper tension. A tiny dab of blue Loctite has always worked well on all my knives, especially for EDC knives. You only need a tiny bit applied to the very end of the screw, that ensures there is no excess which can wick its way into the pivot while it's still wet. My Emerson had that issue out of box. The 21s are the only knives I don't use it on.

Even on the pin, a tiny bit is all that is needed. Doesn't seem like a big deal to me, but to each his own I guess.
 
First off, I have a lot of faith in Loc-Tite, excellent glue I must say! Once did a repair to my Glock with it and it held up magnificently.

That said I think its a little excessive to have to strip a knife down to clean it. Do you strip your car to the chassis when it gets dirty? Never done that in my life and god knows I have a lot of knives. Run it under lukewarm water and then blast it with WD-40, blow the excess out with an air compressor (or just shake it vigorously and use paper towel if compressed air is not avail) and you are good to go. The only time you might have a prob is if beach sand gets stuck in there. That may require multiple rinsings. One reason I don't take folders to the beach! ;)
 
After reading the thread completely I have to agree with CRK. I realize this is a CRK forum and this is a great place to discuss and share ideas, concerns, and even problems we may all run into, but in this case I think at least a phone call to CRK first would have driven this discussion into the right direction from the start, skipping all the questions and speculation. Instead this thread could have been a "heads up" issue and solution thread. I'm not saying that you have to be satisfied with the locktite solution, but just my thoughts.

I think the biggest issue people have is assuming the 25 is a beefier 21. Based on the pivot and thicker blade stock it really sounds to me like it's more of a Umnumzaan with a 21 look (a gentleman's Umnumzaan if you will). Am I way off with this thought?
 
What does the assumption that it's beefier have to do with the stop pin spinning?

Not trying to be a jerk, I just don't see the connection.
 
A beefier pivot may be on the 25, but how many pivots have you broken in all the years of using a knife? I never have. Beefier pivots don't appeal to me because I don't pry with my knives, this is opinion yes, but still, the last place a knife will fail in my opinion is a pivot. That is not a selling point for me. Ease I maintenance, blade geometry, steel and fit and craftsmanship sell to me. I don't know why Chris put that stop pin in, but I'm sure he didn't think it up in a night. If the knife already needs loctite in the pivot, why is it an issue to put it on the stop pin as well? You already have it out anyways.
 
I'm glad the title 'construction flaw?' had the "?". It's certainly not a construction flaw. Now, you may, or may not, like the design. That's a personal choice. Time will tell just how robust the design is*
 
Gregc57 said:
I'm glad the title 'construction flaw?' had the "?". It's certainly not a construction flaw. Now, you may, or may not, like the design. That's a personal choice. Time will tell just how robust the design is*
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Of course, the thread was made for a discussion and not for statements.
We can argue about the definition I wrote in a thread name (moderators edited it already anyway).
but it is impossible to ignore the fact that from now we have: one more step in assembly + a possible point of failure (25) vs. just put your knife together and don't worry (Classic/Regular/21)

Gregc57 said:
Time will tell just how robust the design is*
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I don't know what you mean by robust, I even don't recall CRK by themselves calling Sebenza by this word. But time is already telling that I am not the only one who faced this issue. There are videos on youtube, other forums and responses in this thread.
 
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vininull said:
Of course, the thread was made for a discussion and not for statements.
We can argue about the definition I wrote in a thread name (moderators edited it already anyway).
but it is impossible to ignore the fact that from now we have: one more step in assembly + a possible point of failure (25) vs. just put your knife together and don't worry (Classic/Regular/21)



I don't know what you mean by robust, I even don't recall CRK by themselves calling Sebenza by this word. But time is already telling that I am not the only one who faced this issue. There are videos on youtube, other forums and responses in this thread.
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The CRK rep just told you that the problem occurred because a little Loctite was omitted by error. If the design requires Loctite to function properly then it is not flawed. You may not like it, and others may feel the same way, but if you assemble the knife correctly the you will not have to worry. The vast majority of 25 users have not had this issue, therefor your assumption that Loctite will provide poor reliability is incorrect.
 
Moxy said:
As a result of that the stop pin must not be allowed to rotate, or it will contact the moving blade. Clearly Mr. Reeve himself realizes that an interference fit pin is not the best solution, and therefor has amended the design to include a tapped stop pin that accepts fastening screws on either side.
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I'm sorry if I missed it, but where did anyone explain why the change from a press-fit pin to a double-screw pin was made? and where has it been opined that it was an improvement?
 
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