Sebenza - I just couldn't do it...

[RetiredGuns]

Sorry you got fooled.

Fooled? What is that meant to imply? I've owned 3-4 dozen Spydercos and used them all. I did like the Leafstorm for it's design, quality, steel and just plain 'ol appeal. String is exactly what I was referring to as I wax string coax and fiber every day in my job. The short blade allows for only so much cutting surface and I found my self bound in the cutout constantly. Not a huge deal as I have others for tasks. I'm certainly not the only person to have this problem and I'm certainly not the only person who (chooses) to multitask with an EDC instead of carrying a box cutter.

Don't really appreciate you implying that I was "fooled" like some Idiot just because a certain knife didn't work perfectly for me.

 

[RetiredGuns]

dupe..

 

[marthinus]

My standard reply to these threads:

Well, here is some food for thought, or just some good reading material regarding tight tolerances, that CRK is renowned for, locks and high dollar knives that Sal Glesser, owner of Spyderco has mentioned through the years on the forums (ps, search is your friend).

Another thing to remember is that the Manufacturing Quality award that CRK has won so many times are not chosen by a panel, it is voted for by fellow knife makers. Even Bob Dozier, a very established maker in his own right has CRK pocket knives and I love his motto of : if it feels like climbing through a barbed wire fence, there is something wrong. Slim, sleek and simple knives.

[video=youtube;nI_73zvGx5Y]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nI_73zvGx5Y[/video]

A few weeks back, in this thread, someone asked if there was a Spyderco which could compete with the Sebenza. Sal eventually chimed in. His post was primarily a response to someone's skepticism regarding the origins of the framelock. He noted that he had, in his personal collection, a Chris Reeve knife with an earlier lock of Chris' called the "Lock 45". He further noted that it dated back to the 1970's and was the predecessor of the Reeve Integral Lock. That lead to someone asking what it looked like, at which point he suggested sending it to me to be photographed. He also noted in a later post that it was a small knife. It arrived a couple days ago and he wasn't kidding about its size. For the benefit of those who like "dimensional data" it weighs 1.375 ounces (40 grams) has a closed length of 2 13/16" (71 mm), a blade length of 2 7/32" (57mm) with a 2 1/16" (52mm) cutting edge, and is 5/16" (8mm) thick. For those who find photographic comparisons easier to visualize, the first photo below shows it with a Kiwi and my LH Mnandi.

Beyond that, it's an intriguing design. The action is glassy smooth and the lock up is rock solid despite the fact that the blade is only supported from one side. The small thumb stud and smooth handle, thin on the off side, make it difficult to open, but might be less of a problem for someone right handed and with better motor skills. No clip, that was probably not even a gleam in Sal's eye yet. I'm assuming the handle is titanium anodized to a bronze hue but that, and any other questions regarding it would best be answered by Sal, or someone intimately familiar with Chris Reeve's early knives.

Closed, lock side:

close up, to show one of the two ball bearings:

The balls do not serve as detents, just to smooth the action. Only friction holds the blade closed.

Another close up, note the angled locking surfaces on the blade...

Lock side view, half open. You can almost see the lower ball bearing:

Top view, almost fully open:

Fully open, lock side:

Finally, the design does have one peculiarity, you can fold the blade in the wrong direction, at least until the thumb stud makes contact with the frame...

Paul

My Personal Website - - - - - - A Beginners Guide to Spyderco Collecting - - - - - - Kiwimania
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Spyderco Collector # 043 - - WTC # 1458 - 1504 - 1508 - Never Forget, Never Forgive!
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Well, I cannot speak for Chris Reeve Knives, but I will offer an opinion.

I've known Chris and Ann for many years. We worked together when Chris was in South Africa.

A CRK knife is not a custom knife, nor is it a production knife. They are in a class by themselves. They've taken many years to develop their reputation.

Each piece is custom made by skilled custom makers. CRK tolerances and standards are the highest I've seen in processes like surface grinding and heat treat. There is a limit to their production capacity.

Chris is pretty anal on quality. "Quality is time. = Time is money". He pays his craftsmen a fair wage, and he charges a fair margin, he gives the world a product like no other. Chris and Ann work hard and they make a good living. "Enormous profits" is an inside joke that Chris and I laugh about. Frankly, I think they'd feel guilty if they made too much money.

The "Market" will determine if his business strategies work, regardless of what they are. If they don't work, adjustments are made....that's how businesses survive.

BTW, the flip side of a "bargain driven" market is manufacturers are forced to import product (export jobs) from China to compete in the need for the "lower price". More complications.

sal

Hi Dulleddown,

More profit is usually associated with higher price. That's normal. Profit is usually a percentage of sales price. To think that a high priced auto should garner the same proft as a low priced auto is not in accord with business. It might be the same percentage, but being more expensive, it will be more profit.

Unless you are a manufacturer, familiar with close tolerance manufacturing of heat treated steel & Titanium parts, you are not likely to be able to see all of the differences between one of Chris' knives and others. For example; CRK keeps 0.0005 tolerance on surface grinding. That's one sixth the thickness of a hair. Do you have the knowledsge and equipment to discover that tolerance?

In the end, it's all about trust. CRK took many years to build and maintain their repuation. Built with consistent focus. Even those trying to make a "cheaper" version must "leave out processes" or "soften their tolerance", or they will cost as much.

Rarely do you pay for the "name". That's a bullshit sales pitch made up by the ignorant claiming to offer the same for less. Money valuation between countries might offer a "deal" for a while until the money value balances, but all in all, you will get what you pay for.

sal

-----------------------------------------------------

Just because you can't see the difference doesn't mean it isn't there, it just means you can't see it.

Hi GWLee,

The benefit of tight tolerances is usually for long term durability as well as smooth function. Long term durability is difficult to determine in a short term decision. That's why reputation is important.

sal

Nice video.

High dollar knives are high dollar because they cost more to make. It might be materials (Titanium, unubtanium, etc.), it might be tolerances (Chris' has lotsa zeros after the decimal before hitting numbers), it might be labor (carving, engraving, etc.).

Sometmes those differences are difficult if not impossible for even the trained eye to detenct, generally impossible for a new student.

Just because you can't see the difference, doesn't mean it isn't there, sometimes it just means you can't see it.

sal

At the same time there are many people that feel the knife is not worth it, I did until I read Sal Glesser's comments and bought one myself after 3 years of saving (the knife was later taken in a mugging) and I was UTTERLY UNDERWHELMED when I bought it, even though I handled it before hand I just felt like owning something of true quality for the first time in my life (like a good quality car/suite/watch/camera). Until I used it non stop, on the farm etc and everything just started "flowing" and making sence. I replaced the stolen knife with an Insingo. I will always have a CRK and they retail for around $625 here. They are, for me at least, worth it and my personal connection, what the Sebenza has meant in my life, makes it special for me.

I have rambled a bit, but I hope some of what I have said has helped you to form your own opinion on the matter.

 

[chavez556]

I would have to say that the Sebenza not only cuts like a laser, but it sit's in the pocket so nicely. It's slim, doesn't stick out to much, and it's build with extreme precision. You can not be a knife guy without trying one. I got rid of my first one to buy a 1911, and now I'm regretting it.

 

[DShiflet]

Maybe it's true that you could get a very nice knife for under 150 but let's face it--it will NEVER be of a Seb's quality.

But it WILL be close enough that without a microscope, you'd never know the difference without actually being told about it. I can live with that difference in "quality" when for the most miniscule of differences, I can buy 2-4 times as many knives...or 1 knife, and a lot of that fleeting junk, or whatever else. If I liked the general aesthetics of the knife I might consider it(I won't pay $20 for a knife if I think it's ugly), but I'm not paying that much extra for an ugly(IMO) knife based on a difference of quality that isn't going to make one bit of difference in the real world. If you want to, it's your money, so do what you will.

 

[DShiflet]

Don't forget $500 cell phones or the latest gadget.... That people will camp out for days waiting in line to get......

$200+ shoes with someones name on them.

$200 to $400 Flip Flops..... God help me with that fashion tragedy....

But yeah, more people really can afford $400 knives than they think, the real problem is MOST of them throw more money away on booze, eating out, that Starbucks coffee and other assorted things....

That stuff really adds up fast and if they really sat down and added up all the money they spend on that stuff per month/year they could buy pretty much any knife they wanted too and afford it easy.

But then that makes too much sense so they just say they are too expensive... $400 for a knife, that's crazy.....

Well, I wouldn't pay $200 for a pair of shoes(much less flip flops), my phone is cheap(it can make calls, text, and take crappy photos, and...that's it), but yeah, you're right, if I passed on eating out for a bit I could afford a Seb easily. The difference is, I can get ONE Seb for the same price of EIGHT(at least) meals with the girl I like, and I GUARANTEE you I'd get more enjoyment out of those 8+ meals than I would the 1 Seb. It's not a matter of not being able to afford it, it's a matter of not being able to afford it without giving up something better. For some of us, the food(or in other people's case, the shoes, phones, booze, or whatever) is the more enjoyable use of our money. Hell, for me buying a couple of $200 Spydercos or ZTs would be a better use of my money if I decided I was gonna cut back on eating out or whatever.

 

[Ankerson]

Well, I wouldn't pay $200 for a pair of shoes(much less flip flops), my phone is cheap(it can make calls, text, and take crappy photos, and...that's it), but yeah, you're right, if I passed on eating out for a bit I could afford a Seb easily. The difference is, I can get ONE Seb for the same price of EIGHT(at least) meals with the girl I like, and I GUARANTEE you I'd get more enjoyment out of those 8+ meals than I would the 1 Seb. It's not a matter of not being able to afford it, it's a matter of not being able to afford it without giving up something better. For some of us, the food(or in other people's case, the shoes, phones, booze, or whatever) is the more enjoyable use of our money. Hell, for me buying a couple of $200 Spydercos or ZTs would be a better use of my money if I decided I was gonna cut back on eating out or whatever.

Another way to look at it is spending that money on one $400 knife or two $200 knives when you know those knives will still be around for a very long time, likely your lifetime and beyond....

A girl, well.........

Even if she does stick around for a little while you would be spending a lot more than $400 on her/them...

With a $400 purchase you make that once and it will last you for the rest of your life basically.

With a girl, it's an endless pit that you throw money into..... Unless you find a good one who makes more money than you do and and buys you your knives as gifts..... That's a very rare find because most just walk around with their hand out waiting for the cash to fill it.

And you can't sell her later on and get your money back either.

 

[DShiflet]

Another way to look at it is spending that money on one $400 knife or two $200 knives when you know those knives will still be around for a very long time, likely your lifetime and beyond....

A girl, well.........

Even if she does stick around for a little while you would be spending a lot more than $400 on her/them...

With a $400 purchase you make that once and it will last you for the rest of your life basically.

With a girl, it's an endless pit that you throw money into..... Unless you find a good one who makes more money than you do and and buys you your knives as gifts..... That's a very rare find because most just walk around with their hand out waiting for the cash to fill it.

And you can't sell her later on and get your money back either.

Lol, okay, valid point...but in that case, remove the girl and just make it 20 meals(realistically it'd be more than 20 meals cause a meal when I'm on my own won't often run me $20, but we'll go with it), and I'd still get more enjoyment out of those 20 meals than I would the 1 Sebenza.

 

[Ankerson]

Lol, okay, valid point...but in that case, remove the girl and just make it 20 meals(realistically it'd be more than 20 meals cause a meal when I'm on my own won't often run me $20, but we'll go with it), and I'd still get more enjoyment out of those 20 meals than I would the 1 Sebenza.

Yeah good food is always good.

 

[Lycosa]

I use to have all kinds of requirements in choosing a knife. No more. I buy a knife that I really like, carry it, use it and enjoy it.
Good gawd.

 

[TTTis]

Which is exactly why I don't own a Seb anymore. I'm not trying to impress anyone.

I keep my Sng and XM-18 because I like them so much more than Sebenzas. 99% of my friends have no clue how much they cost so they aren't used to impress them. The knives impress ME with their attributes.

So the only reason for buying a Seb is to impress people now? Good god that statement is idiotic.

Those other two knives you own are in the exact same price range. Many many people buy them SOLELY to impress people and never use them. And 99% of people have no clue what a Seb, an SNG or a Hinderer are. Go up to a random person on the street and ask them to confirm my statement. You point is moot.

 

[Cynic2701]

So the only reason for buying a Seb is to impress people now? Good god that statement is idiotic.

Those other two knives you own are in the exact same price range. Many many people buy them SOLELY to impress people and never use them. And 99% of people have no clue what a Seb, an SNG or a Hinderer are. Go up to a random person on the street and ask them to confirm my statement. You point is moot.

Yup. I've never met anyone who knew what a Sebenza was. If someone is trying to argue that Sebenza's (or the equivalents) are status symbols, then they haven't really thought out what the primary requirements of a status symbol are.

Seriously, $400 is pretty cheap for top line quality for pretty much any good. Just take a look at cognacs. Those start getting expensive.

Some people like to spend $400 on Charvet shirts, or start shelling out thousands for goth ninja.

 

[Ankerson]

Yup. I've never met anyone who knew what a Sebenza was. If someone is trying to argue that Sebenza's (or the equivalents) are status symbols, then they haven't really thought out what the primary requirements of a status symbol are.

Seriously, $400 is pretty cheap for top line quality for pretty much any good. Just take a look at cognacs. Those start getting expensive.

Some people like to spend $400 on Charvet shirts, or start shelling out thousands for goth ninja.

Yeah people outside of BF wouldn't know a $5 gas station knife from a Sebenza or any other $400+ knife...

So I am not sure about the status symbol thing either..

 

[Sonnydaze]

to the Ank... yes, a $400 CRK knife is a sure investment; high quality lasts a lifetime.
With women...it's not so easy...
Sonnydaze

 

[KrisOK]

I 'Get It' with the value of the Sebenza. I don't own one, because I've set my maximum price ceiling at $200 per knife (Used to be $100 before the addiction became serious ). But I've carried a friend's Sebbie for a week and agree that it's an outstanding knife that really sets a high standard for fit, finish and precision. The knife holds it's value extremely well, and someone can always get most of their investment back when they sell. I'd probably own one if I didn't have the self imposed price limit.

The knife pricing that I 'Don't Get' are the dealer prices on the Rick Hinderers. The XM series are VERY comparable to CRK in terms of fit and finish. Rick sells the XM-18's at shows for close to the same price as a Sebenza. But buying from a distributor adds HUNDREDS of dollars to the price. Personally I think this is just wrong, and probably wouldn't buy one at any price. If the man who manufactures the knives values them in the $400 range, than that's what they should sell for. Almost doubling the price just because you have a monopoly on sales is just crazy. It obviously WORKS, but I certainly wouldn't EVER jump on that band wagon.

 

[RetiredGuns]

I 'Get It' with the value of the Sebenza. I don't own one, because I've set my maximum price ceiling at $200 per knife (Used to be $100 before the addiction became serious ). But I've carried a friend's Sebbie for a week and agree that it's an outstanding knife that really sets a high standard for fit, finish and precision. The knife holds it's value extremely well, and someone can always get most of their investment back when they sell. I'd probably own one if I didn't have the self imposed price limit.

The knife pricing that I 'Don't Get' are the dealer prices on the Rick Hinderers. The XM series are VERY comparable to CRK in terms of fit and finish. Rick sells the XM-18's at shows for close to the same price as a Sebenza. But buying from a distributor adds HUNDREDS of dollars to the price. Personally I think this is just wrong, and probably wouldn't buy one at any price. If the man who manufactures the knives values them in the $400 range, than that's what they should sell for. Almost doubling the price just because you have a monopoly on sales is just crazy. It obviously WORKS, but I certainly wouldn't EVER jump on that band wagon.

Now is a good time for this analogy - 9mm ammo is usually $12.95 for standard 115gr full metal jacket. Right now (if) you can even find some, it is many times double that price. Do you want some now or when it becomes readily available? Rick's knives are seemingly never readily available for most folks so a premium it is.

 

[cncpro11]

Another way to look at it is spending that money on one $400 knife or two $200 knives when you know those knives will still be around for a very long time, likely your lifetime and beyond....

A girl, well.........

Even if she does stick around for a little while you would be spending a lot more than $400 on her/them...

With a $400 purchase you make that once and it will last you for the rest of your life basically.

With a girl, it's an endless pit that you throw money into..... Unless you find a good one who makes more money than you do and and buys you your knives as gifts..... That's a very rare find because most just walk around with their hand out waiting for the cash to fill it.

And you can't sell her later on and get your money back either.

This one made me laugh, mainly because it is so true. Throw in a divorce, and suddenly your 8 good time meals just cost you half of everything you own.

 

[A.P.F.]

This one made me laugh, mainly because it is so true. Throw in a divorce, and suddenly your 8 good time meals just cost you half of everything you own.

That is a rather cynical way of looking at things, CNC, albeit true.

 

[Ankerson]

I figured everyone might get a kick out of that. LOL

 

[cncpro11]

That is a rather cynical way of looking at things, CNC, albeit true.

I would have posted an lol cat but tapatalk doesn't allow for it.