Sebenza, I just don't get it!!!

A few comments on above posts:
1 Master machinists: Some say a CNC knife doesn't have the "soul" of a handmade. The Sebenza has "soul".
2 Thin edge fragility: I find it amusing that a SAK can take the stress of every day (and then some) use, but people question the Sebenza's edge.
3 Penelope who????

Paul
 
I find this whole Sebenza controversy kind of funny. There are people trying to convince themselves that the Sebenza isn’t a sensational knife, without even trying one. Reading steel and blade length specifications are fine, but don’t really tell you a whole lot about a knife’s performance. As Gary kindly pointed out, Chris Reeve understands blade geometry and has come up with a very efficient cutter. The heat treatment of his steel is probably also a big issue. You can use an exceptional grade of steel when making knife, but you’ll end up with junk if the heat treatment isn’t right. Both of these aspects are an art and require skill.

This is nothing against BM or their knife making skills. I have an Ares and love the Axis lock. I’m sure that the Pinnacle is a good knife. I handled one in a knife store and thought it was nice. It didn’t blow me away enough to buy one, but it was nice. I just didn’t get that “built like a tank” feeling from it. The Sebenza inspired a much greater level of confidence. That doesn’t mean jack empirically, but does matter in the real world. I’m not afraid to use my Sebenza hard. I’d probably just treat a Pinnacle with “kid gloves” if I were to buy one.

So is the Sebenza empirically better than a Pinnacle? I don’t know. For all I know, the Pinnacle’s lock is just as strong and resists an identical amount of torque. For all I know, the Pinnacle has just as efficient a cutting edge. For all I know, Benchmade’s 154CM is heat treated so well that it will outperform Chris Reeve’s BG-42. I haven’t used a Pinnacle, so I don’t know. I will say that the Sebenza is an awesome knife and inspires me to push it to its limits. The Pinnacle didn’t inspire me.

As for a folder only being used for certain chores, and a fixed blade handling the bigger stuff……. That’s great if you happen to have a fixed blade with you. I’m a fixed blade fan, but don’t always carry one. My folders get a lot more use and carry time. I was cutting vinyl panels this weekend and didn’t have a fixed blade on me. I don’t carry a fixed blade when I go out visiting family and shopping. I would have preferred a fixed blade for this tough chore, but you can’t use what you don’t have. I wouldn’t have tried this task with my CRKT Point Guard, but my Sebenza did the job well. The Sebenza provides are huge amount of utility to the user when it’s the only knife in their pocket. Again, this is knives in the real world.

Heck, you don’t really need a tactical folder at all if you carry a big fixed blade. You could just carry a slipjoint for small cutting tasks that don’t require a great amount of force. This what I do when I’m hiking in the mountains. The Seb is a tool for people who don’t have that luxury.

We could go around and around on this topic, but a lot of this comes down to intended use. If all you plan on using the Sebenza for is cutting fruit and opening letters, then don’t bother getting one. Don’t waste your money. Just get something small and very stainless. If you just want a knife that looks gorgeous, there are lots of cheaper knives to choose from. If you just want a knife for self-defense, get a CRKT KFF or something. If you want a knife just to brag about, get a William Henry.

But if you plan on using your knife hard for a wide variety of tasks, can’t carry a fixed blade, demand extraordinary customer service, and want something that will outlive you, consider a used Sebenza. The Sebenza isn’t filled with gimmicks or exciting gadgetry. It’s just a simple well-made tool. And if you decide you don’t like the used Sebenza, just sell it for close to the cost you paid. No harm, no foul. You'll probably only lose $25.00 at most.

No one knife can please everybody, but the Sebenza seems to please more people than most knives. It sounds like, compared to most other knives, you have a better chance of finding "a keeper" by buying a Sebenza.
 
I am afraid that in an all out durability and abuse test scenario, the Sebenza would not come out on top. The blade has a hollow grind, thin edge geometry and a fairly fine point. The blade is not intended for use prying, smashing, etc. For that a Strider (or Buck variant) would perform much better at the expense of some cutting efficiency. A true high performance blade is not the best one in every performance category, but rather it is one that is capable of performing efficiently in all (or most) categories. The Sebenza may not excel in the categories that are important to every buyer, and as such, may not be right for everyone. If one knife kicked butt in all criteria, everyone would have one. This knife does not exist to my knowledge.
 
A large part of the price of a sebenza, or mercedes or anything produced with care, cannot be seen when you hold one in your hand.
You need hundreds, and some pretty advanced measuring gauges. If the sample to sample variation is very small, chances are that the item of study is:
1. manufactured with precision machinery
2. well designd and tested
3. a well recogniced brand among those familiar with items of the same type
4. more expensive then the average item of the same type
5. good service
6. good second hand value/market

Is it worth paying for? In my experience, yes.
I have not bought a sebenza, yet.
And maybe I never will.
But if I had knife in hand and cash in pocket, they just might swap places.

john
 
Originally posted by Buzzbait

But if you plan on using your knife hard for a wide variety of tasks, can’t carry a fixed blade, demand extraordinary customer service, and want something that will outlive you, consider a used Sebenza. The Sebenza isn’t filled with gimmicks or exciting gadgetry. It’s just a simple well-made tool. And if you decide you don’t like the used Sebenza, just sell it for close to the cost you paid. No harm, no foul. You'll probably only lose $25.00 at most.
Click to expand...

I'd say the same thing about a brand new Spyderco Wegner, at less than 1/3 the cost. And you'd have to put it through a wood chipper to lose $25 in resale, because that's almost a third of the street price. True it's ATS-34 compared to BG-42, but through hard use, you'll wind up resharpening often, and probably prefer ATS-34. You'll also be gripping the knife hard, and probably prefer the Wegner's rounded contours. Yes, it's G-10, but do you wanna talk about scratches in Ti? The Wegner is an example - substitute any one of the MANY fine hard use knives in the $75-$125 street price range, that has the specific features you need for your specific tasks. And then compare it to the Seb, where you get your choice of size - and that's about it.

As for top shelf customer service, drop by the Spyderco forum and ask the owner/president what he thinks, just like you could on the CRK forum. I've never been less than thrilled with the service I've received from Spyderco, and I don't have to sell plasma to get that level of service.

Someone said that an EDC or TNT costs more. Not if you want your Sebbie with an anodized squiggle or two - then you're going to actually pay more for a like sized Seb. Wood inlay? More than almost any EDC, Apogee, Madd Maxx, or TNT, of any size or configuration. Hell, I have a Ralph Freer pearl and stainless damascus folder that cost less than a decorated Seb - not a wood inlay or damascus seb, just a squiggled one.

You can also get most makers to do pretty much any blade shape you want. Ask CRK for a spearpoint Seb. Or to drill some holes for tip down, as was mentioned. Not at any price, my friend.

Yes, I've held Sebs. Several. But if I'm buying a knife to beat on, I'll take 3 Wegners. Maybe a Wegner, a Military, and a BM940 (The BM is an example - I still hold their QC and customer service sins of the past against them) each for it's own special work related properties. All 3 for less than a large Seb. If I'm spending beaucoup $$ for a pretty piece, I can have both a Whitewing and an EDC for the same money as a wood inlayed Seb. And I can have the EDC made in a way that I specifically desire (Bailey's pretty agreeable on the Whitewings, to a point, too). Of course, that's my preference. It's not an empirical measure of which is better, it's just how I'd prefer to spend my money.
 
I own one sebenza though I have owned 3 others at different times. I kept my small old-style handled model. I think for me, the small was the size and shape that felt most comfortable to me for daily carry, all other things being comparable, if not equal (lock strength, edge retention, blade geometry, etc.) With TNTs and Apogees, exceptional knives from all that is written, as well as some exquisite Axis-Locks, I might choose something different if I had X amount of $ to choose a daily carry. But then again, I might not.

For the record, I definitely prefer the old-style handle...
 
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But if I'm buying a knife to beat on, I'll take 3 Wegners. Maybe a Wegner, a Military, and a BM940
-----------------------

That's my point exactly. It would take a Wegner, a Military, and a BM940 to equal the functionality and dependability of my Seb. I prefer to carry just one knife that does it all. :)
 
I'd say the same thing about a brand new Spyderco Wegner,
at less than 1/3 the cost. And you'd have to put it through
a wood chipper to lose $25 in resale, because that's almost
a third of the street price. True it's ATS-34 compared to
BG-42, but through hard use, you'll wind up resharpening
often, and probably prefer ATS-34. You'll also be gripping
the knife hard, and probably prefer the Wegner's rounded
contours. Yes, it's G-10, but do you wanna talk about
scratches in Ti? The Wegner is an example - substitute any
one of the MANY fine hard use knives in the $75-$125 street
price range, that has the specific features you need for your
specific tasks. And then compare it to the Seb, where you
get your choice of size - and that's about it.

As for top shelf customer service, drop by the Spyderco
forum and ask the owner/president what he thinks, just like
you could on the CRK forum. I've never been less than
thrilled with the service I've received from Spyderco, and I
don't have to sell plasma to get that level of service.

Someone said that an EDC or TNT costs more. Not if you
want your Sebbie with an anodized squiggle or two - then
you're going to actually pay more for a like sized Seb. Wood
inlay? More than almost any EDC, Apogee, Madd Maxx, or
TNT, of any size or configuration. Hell, I have a Ralph Freer
pearl and stainless damascus folder that cost less than a
decorated Seb - not a wood inlay or damascus seb, just a
squiggled one.

You can also get most makers to do pretty much any blade
shape you want. Ask CRK for a spearpoint Seb. Or to drill
some holes for tip down, as was mentioned. Not at any
price, my friend.

Yes, I've held Sebs. Several. But if I'm buying a knife to beat
on, I'll take 3 Wegners. Maybe a Wegner, a Military, and a
BM940 (The BM is an example - I still hold their QC and
customer service sins of the past against them) each for it's
own special work related properties. All 3 for less than a
large Seb. If I'm spending beaucoup $$ for a pretty piece, I
can have both a Whitewing and an EDC for the same money
as a wood inlayed Seb. And I can have the EDC made in a
way that I specifically desire (Bailey's pretty agreeable on
the Whitewings, to a point, too). Of course, that's my
preference. It's not an empirical measure of which is better,
it's just how I'd prefer to spend my money.
Click to expand...

Now that is the best response I've heard yet! Bravo!
 
Originally posted by Buzzbait

That's my point exactly. It would take a Wegner, a Military, and a BM940 to equal the functionality and dependability of my Seb. I prefer to carry just one knife that does it all. :)
Click to expand...

Actually, I was using the selection of knives as an example. If I were choosing a single knife, it would be the Wegner. If I were going to spend $300 plus, though, I'd just take 3 so I'd have one to back up the backup that I was using after I dulled down, lost, or gave away the first! The selection was for the variety of blade styles and materials. The Wegner has a deep belly blade that's easily resharpenable - a great utility cutter, the Military has a needle point and CPM440V - a scalpel, and the 940 was to show that I'm not completely Spyder-centric! ;-)

I would also probably need one of them to be at least partially serrated, because no plain edge would have cut through the outdoor, 4-conductor electrical cable that my PS Wegner was chewing through last week when I was wiring floodlights. Just the insulation would have dulled most any plain edge (Even BG-42), let alone the insulated copper that it was covering! Anyone got a partially serrated Seb? Would CRK do it if you asked? If you asked to pay for it?

Of course, that's if I, in my wildest dreams expected any single knife to do every job. I'm a realist, and I understand that no knife, regardless of design or materials, can do it all. But if I had to pick a single knife that is the most versatile, it would have to have some features that aren't standard, or even available on the Seb.
 
Regarding the Sebenza, I consider it the best knife you can buy for the money. It excels at everything a folding knife should be, and the Chris Reeve company excels at standing behind its product. I think Ron Lake, master knife maker, said it best, "...To me, if you look at it (the Sebenza) as a semi-production knife and consider its quality, it is as good or better than ANY handmade knife (emphasis mine)." --Blade magazine, October '01 page 29.

--dan
 
I would like to add something to this regular debate.

A couple of years ago I asked the near as darn it same question. Why was the Sebi a better knife than my CPM 440V Military? I got a bit of abuse, well a lot in fact. I am sick of people using the "if you don't understand you never will" rubbish, this is what they say about those unreliable motorcycles...:rolleyes:

So from my point of view, I got lucky, a good friend trusted me to look after his ATS-34 Sebenza, this gentleman is called Nemo and I consider him one of my best friends! I am lucky to have friends like him and many here as well. The 'Honour' experience (the name of Nemo's Sebi) convinced me that this was a different knife.

Look at the Sebi real close, look at the way it fits the hand, the way parts are finished and fitted to the slightest tolerence, the perfect edge, the... I could talk and talk.

I also own a BM 750 and consider it a fine knife, one I would trust my life with as well. However, when the chips are down, I know I would want my Sebi and it is superiour in EVERY way over the 750 or S2. The steel is better the fit is better, Toyota or Mercedies Benz? Toyota make very well made and good cars M Benz make better cars.

The Sebenza is like real Hi-Fi, it belongs to a group of products that follow the rule of diminishing returns. You spend 100% more to get slightly better performance and lets be honest it is what 10% better than a 750 as a cutting tool right? But you get a hand finished and ground masterwork that has a much thicker lockbar and the 'finished product' feel that the 750 does not have. Yes the 750 is a good knife but no match for the Sebi! If you want a tough knife at 1/3 the price there are few blades as good as a 750, but the Sebi is a finished product, the 750 is hammered out on masse and does not seem finished to me.

Let me compare some things.

Sebi 750
BG-42 blade / ATS-34/154CM blade

Sebi wins

Ti frame / Ti Frame

Sebi wins as it is thicker, stronger and more substantial

Hollow ground convex edge / Recurve standard grind

Sebi wins, the convex edge is the best, the 750 is blunt in comparison

Stop pin is steel / Stop pin is PLASTIC!

Sebi wins

Back spacer is anodised Ti / Plastic!

Thumb stud opener / Thumb stud opener

750 wins here as it is easier to use, but more ugly

Fit and finsih / Er.....next

Sebi wins

Encouraged to dismantle to maintain / Warrenty void

Sebi wins

Sebi $345 / 750 $120-$170

This is up to YOU...:rolleyes:
 
I can't believe there are still forumites above posting about the perceived quality and characteristics who have never "USED" one or only "handled" one. Brothers, if you haven't used one, your "sweeping generalities" are lost on me. I've owned and used most of the Benchmade and Spyderco models mention in previous posts, and believe me, my Sebenza is in a totally different category.

I have the choice of knives to use in my military duties, and the one knife (actually a tool) I carry and rely on to perform my duties, accomplish the mission, and save my life is my Sebenza. I'm sure there are other custom made knives I would do the same with, but having been to Mr. Reeve's shop and availed myself of his customer service and sales representatives, I don't have to look further for a suitable "tool".

It seems like most of the pro-Sebenza crowd are users while most of the detractors haven't walked the walk -- yet.

Bruce
 
Strictly on a personal preference level, the Seb has three critical strikes:

hollow grind
frame lock
all metal handle

As I said, this is my preference only. For the things I use my knives for, those three things combined will rule out any knife for me.

Phil
 
I've owned one Sebenza and would have to agree that it is probably the nicest finished "production" knife made. You really have to handle and use one to notice the difference.

That's being said, I think it is overpriced for a production knife. I think $200 - $250 for a small, and $250 - $300 for a large is a bit more realistic, and probably would still allow plenty of profit. But hey, they have no problem selling them now, so what do I know! ;)

But remember, their not customs anymore. For another $50 - $100 I can get a true custom that is comparable, if not better! I sold my Tanto Sebenza and got an Elishewitz MARS made just for me! :D One of a kind, for about $75 more. You do the math.
 
Anyone got a partially serrated Seb? Would CRK do it if you asked? If you asked to pay for it?
Click to expand...

That is a standard option offered by CRK at the price of $21.00, according to their website. I believe you have to order the blade that way, as regrinding the serrations in would probably effect the heat treat. You will have to contact CRK directly to confirm pricing and availability.

I like Spyderco knives as well, good value and quality at their price point. And the customer service is first rate as well. I had the liner lock break out of a small Wegner on me, and also had to send in a large Wegner whose lock would stick open. They replaced both knives, no problems whatsoever. Of course, replacing my fingers had either knife failed while under hard use would not have been possible, would it? I find investing in the best possible tools is an easy priority to set.
 
Bruce said it. Most of the skeptics of the Sebenza are folks who have not yet had the experience of carrying and handling one.

In no way is this intended as a slight against those folks.

I would simply suggest that they find a way to pick one up and handle it for a while. After that experience, if they don't see the difference, then that's what makes the world go 'round.

If it's one thing I've learned in about 8 months on this forum it is that there are as many "knife opinions" as there are members, and all are entitled to respect and courtesy. That's why I continue to learn and enjoy here.
 
Originally posted by stjames


That is a standard option offered by CRK at the price of $21.00, according to their website. I believe you have to order the blade that way, as regrinding the serrations in would probably effect the heat treat. You will have to contact CRK directly to confirm pricing and availability.
Click to expand...

I stand corrected. Has anyone ever seen a serrated Seb? I agree that it would have to be done before HT.

BTW - how could you lose your fingers if the knife was stuck open?
 
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