selecting a battle rifle

While I can appreciate the work that goes into their 1911's. I don't think an AR from a company like Wilson is worth the extra cost over Rock River, Bushmaster, etc.

RRA Varmint A4 (varmint sounds more friendly than sniper :p ), 3/4" at 100 yards guarantee. Base price $1060 plus you could probably find it cheaper from a dealer.
http://www.rockriverarms.com/item-detail.cfm?ID=AR1500X&storeid=1&image=va407.gif&CFID=34618799&CFTOKEN=97646370

Wilson Super Sniper 1" at 100 yards guarantee base price $1799
http://www.wilsoncombat.com/r_ss-15.asp
 
I retired from the Drug Enforcement Admin. twelve years ago. Recently, after a bunch of testing, DEA contracted with Rock River Arms to supply the AR based full auto/ selective fire battle rifle for DEA's use. Current agents are VERY happy with their choice. One said "mine runs like buttermilk on ball bearings". Cost is comparable.....very reasonable. jn
 
Watch out Grime, all us red neck hillilly tipes r cumon to geet cha, all ower cillerens is gonna bee thar tooo!!!



Give me a break.
 
OOOOOOHHHHHH NNNNOOOOOO not only are they giving firearms to kids, they are giving them to FEMALE kids!!!!!!!! OHHHHHHHH MYYYYYYYYY GOD!!!!!
(running through the town hall with hands waiving above head).
 
Runs With Scissors said:
I'm leaning towards the AR at this point. I just remembered yesterday that I have an uncle that's been building AR's for a long time. Not talking about slapping a Bushmaster together with parts from Shotgun News, but milling his own recievers, parts, etc. From what I understand, he's built some pretty fine shootin' guns. What could be cooler than an AR made by a relative, and rewarded from yer old man? Not to mention the adaptability of the platform and the fact that parts for the gun will be the very last to dry up.
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I would think a custom AR built by your uncle would have way more sentimental value than any production gun.
 
FriendofBill's said:
Did you get that out at the Axman? I used to live in Missoula myself untill summer '01. I got all my guns and gear from them. They're the best.
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Maybe they were in 01. I moved here in 05 and went into their shop a few times. They were way overpriced and their staff talked down to me like I was some kind of idiot every time I went in there. After a few experiences like that I decided not to spend any money there.
 
Man there's a lot of choice to sift through. I have a question. Say you want a tacticool setup (not that I would want one, but hypothetically :D). And by cool I mean tactical 16" or 18" with the collapsable stock, rails all over, and accurate at 300 or 400 ish yards. I like .308 BTW. Some like the HK are rather boring workhorses, but get 'r done. I know I can buy something stipped down, and start building up, but it seems that among all the choices you can really rack up a bill for just the rail systems alone. Is there a manufactured rifle in .308 that comes with the short HB or Bull that can stand the heat, fire muddy (you know, isn't a princess about dirt and carbon), AND is all tricked out for you already out of the box? Do you have to compromise on quality to buy tacticool out of the box?
 
diceman said:
My experience with the M16/AR15 is that they won't feed reliably when they're dirty or full of carbon. They get dirty pretty fast. My DPMS is in 7.62x39 - the Russian round (same as AK or SKS). My only complaint is that you can't get good mags in 7.62x39. And, I chose that cartridge because it has always been so cheap to shoot - but - you can hardly find a good deal on it anymore b/c everyone (good guys and bad guys - not us though) are using it in Iraq. Quality wise, I think that my rifle is more solid in all areas than my Colt or FN M-16's from the Army. I've only killed prarie dogs with it so far, but it did very well. I probably put about 500 rounds of cheap (and dirty) Wolf ammo through it that day with no issues - I had a misfeed or two, but some oil took care of it. I really like AR's in that they are simple to maintain, accurate, and easy to shoot. Just keep 'em clean! I shot a 1/2" or so group at 100m while sighting in this summer, off of a front sandbag (no rear). Here's a picture below (along w/ a couple Glocks and my SKS) I paid $700 for mine, slightly used.
resizeguns0rb.jpg
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Hey man, you didn't tell me your AR was chambered in 7.62x39. That's pretty cool. If I'd have known I would have told you I got a couple AK's and an SKS. We gotta go shooting some time. We could split a case of 7.62. I've heard that the AK's lack of accuracy (compared to an AR) comes from it's loose tolerances instead of the actual 7.62 round. How do your groups compare between the AR and the SKS? What are those Glocks chambered in? I've got a 32c. I love it. I was thinking about getting a 30 cause I've got a couple 1911's. You know standerdized ammo and all that stuff......Let me know when you want to shoot. I gotta get out, I feel like I've been cooped up half the winter.
 
FriendofBill's said:
Is there a manufactured rifle in .308 that comes with the short HB or Bull that can stand the heat, fire muddy (you know, isn't a princess about dirt and carbon), AND is all tricked out for you already out of the box? Do you have to compromise on quality to buy tacticool out of the box?
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I don't think you have compromise quality for the tacticool look, but you're definitely going to pay more for it. The more you want, the more you pay. The better quality, the more you pay. You just have to shop around.
 
Sure. Did I mention I didn't want to pay a lot?:D

Any specific suggestions. There's so many on the low price end that when you look into the reviews they don't stand up. Should probably start with a great gun and build on it, right? Does this dream rifle of mine exist?
 
I think there is a bell curve to tool use. Past a fat point on the curve, you pay exponentially for 'progress' that may not be progress, or that neccesary.
I do not think you have to pay 3000 dollars to get a very fine rifle. Be careful. Remember the Savage bolt story- during the 80's and 90's they were hard to give away. They were and are still very very accurate. They just weren't as 'nice' as the 3 leading mass produced bolts.

Something else to think about: yesterday's cool is todays passe. You can find tricked out 'tactical' semi autos that just don't have the very latest.
Frankly, I wouldn't spend more than a 1000 for a super AR.

I might go up to get a 308 AR if I liked it enough. I don't think the design will ever be as reliable as either the AK derivatives, and there are some very good ones, the FN/FAL or the M1A.

I would not pay for a pre ban. I would not pay for a Galil. I probably would never pay for a HK with all HK parts.

If they ever get the light machine gun reciever back here from Russia, there is a 308 'fancy' version I'd look at. But if they want as much for it as a Valmet or Galil I'd pass.

Despite the 'but's' from the M1A critics, I still wonder what's wrong with it? It's accurate. It's reliable. It's tough. Mine weighs 8 and around 3/4 pounds.

The FN is 'supposed' to be 'better', but it weighs more, is not more accurate, and is a sizable mess to clean after extended use. Do I have that right?? It made sense as a erector set, any country can assemble one mass production, but I do not honestly know if that means anything to us civilians. The Israelis said it is more easy to control under full auto, but still not easy enough. And most of us don't have full auto.

One thing for sure; there are a lot of choices. Most of them are not 'bad'.

To think, we haven't even touched 'sub machine guns'. I can't wait for everyone to tell me HK is the best. What a surprise.

Here's my cop story; for the few years I managed the gun store in Southern Ca, there was a period of great change in our very small arms. Cops would 'trade up' as the new flavor of the year was announced. I saw a variety of semi auto handguns, carbines, and 'sniper rifles' get the nod, and then the jetason as something 'better' arrived.

They are just like everybody else. I still remember the undercover guy who used a lowly Ruger 10/22 to shoot out street lights when he was about to make a bust. (naturally, I'm certain he notified the City of the outage afterwards...)



munk
 
FriendofBill's said:
Sure. Did I mention I didn't want to pay a lot?:D

Any specific suggestions. There's so many on the low price end that when you look into the reviews they don't stand up. Should probably start with a great gun and build on it, right? Does this dream rifle of mine exist?
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Well, you can put an AR together piece by piece. That mean you can use exactly the parts that you want and customize it to fit your needs. You can get a lower receiver for about $160, a complete upper for anywhere between $500 to $2000, a rail system for $200 or $300, iron sights for $100 to $200, a stock for $50 to $200 and various other parts for some more change. Optics, yeah well, how high do you want to go? Bipod, lights, lasers, foward grips and all that other magical stuff, who knows? I'd say $1000 is a good estimate. If you spend less, then great. I you spend a little more, then at least you have exactly what you want. Check www.ar15.com . There's more than enough stuff there to keep you busy for awhile.
 
Throw it in the mud, beat the crap out of it and expect it to function? FAL built by Arizona Response Systems- CL lined barrel/chamber and metacol finish on internals for corrosion resistance. Cheap mags, adjustable gas system and very easy to work on in field.

Bill
 
I vote you should go with the match grade version M1A and slap a Leupold Mark IV on top.:thumbup: Good luck....I'm off to the gun show!
 
Being talked down to by a gun store clerk, or high end stereo guy is one of those experiences that simply do not make sense.
Hard to believe. But it happens too often.

...on the other hand, I've had customers ask me questions as if I were a Lyman engineer, and when I could not answer, treated me like dirt. Lot's of Lyman engineers work for 6 bucks an hour at outdoor stores, right?


munk
 
munk said:
To think, we haven't even touched 'sub machine guns'. I can't wait for everyone to tell me HK is the best. What a surprise.
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They are, and it is not a surprise -- most everyone else got out of the business years ago and H&K can rest on their laurels.

By WWII, there were some very good SMG's available. By war's end the operating systems were more or less perfected, and everything since then has just been tweaks and refinements. The notable exception would be FN's wondergun and they're probably finding out at this point why everyone else (save H&K) gave it up so long ago -- there's just no money in it. Even if you're successful, you're not successful. That's why everyone else gave up on it.

If I ran a successful small arms manufacturing syndicate, I would re-release the PPSh-41 in 9x19mm (a relatively simple conversion) with synthetic furniture, a pistol grip, and better sights. I'd charge $500 for producing a $100 weapon, and I'd eventually dominate the market if word got around. This is a dry hole. It's just too specialized a weapon for a large volume of sales and the really great strides were made sixty years ago. Any high school student can design a functional blowback-operated pistol-caliber carbine. Genius is in predicting the trends, and the trend is for things other than subguns in most cases.

Off topic, but I enjoy discussing such things. I still think the OP would do extremely well with any of the choices that they're examining and cannot recommend any single one unconditionally. (In other words, I like them all.)
 
The AR15 is a "Carbine"and not a battle rifle. It surely fits the need of the average American in need of a good rifle. The FAL system is great, easy to use but it IS a "battle rifle". It is heavier than the AR15 and shoots a great round, the 7.62 x 51. These rifles are VERY robust. I used one in a bush war etc and love it.

The AR15 needs a little more attention than the FAL. If you want a GREAT compromize, look at the Robinson Arms 5.56mm carbine. It is piston driven, has a charging handle on the left side of the reciever and a good folding stock. Easy to use and comes with rails etc.
 
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