- Joined
- Jan 30, 2002
- Messages
- 7,269
-
The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is ready to order! See this thread for details: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/bladeforums-2024-traditional-knife.2003187/
Price is$300$250 ea (shipped within CONUS). If you live outside the US, I will contact you after your order for extra shipping charges.
Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/ - Order as many as you like, we have plenty.
Self Defense With a knife - for adults only
- Thread starter DannyinJapan
- Start date
- Joined
- Nov 3, 1998
- Messages
- 4,331
Heh. Yeah, that could work, but it would be even better to be able to use something that will enable the defender to keep his distance...
a firearm is the preferred response, but chairs, rocks, a heavy belt with a metal buckle- anything longer than the knife you're facing, or that can be thrown in preference to closing with a blade= good.
I just finished a week of security at the Master's Golf Tournament. We stopped a lot of people carrying teeny, tiny little knives. They weren't allowed.
We allowed in the people carrying the combination walking stick/golf seat, which is about 2 1/5 feet of steel rod with a combination spike and circular blade on the tip.
John
a firearm is the preferred response, but chairs, rocks, a heavy belt with a metal buckle- anything longer than the knife you're facing, or that can be thrown in preference to closing with a blade= good.
I just finished a week of security at the Master's Golf Tournament. We stopped a lot of people carrying teeny, tiny little knives. They weren't allowed.
We allowed in the people carrying the combination walking stick/golf seat, which is about 2 1/5 feet of steel rod with a combination spike and circular blade on the tip.
John
- Joined
- Oct 9, 2003
- Messages
- 5,594
(Please dont take this as a critical deconstruction. This comment was very salient to an important point I try to make about these discussions.)
Kendo is not a martial art. Kendo is a sport very loosely based on a martial art.
Kendo has points and rules and judges. That's a sport.
Try to understand what I mean. Im not putting it down, it's good exercise, fun and builds fellowship. It is a sport, though, and almost irrelevant to a discussion of actual martial arts. Yes, it does focus on a particular weapon.
See? Its just a game, a sport. In that purpose, its fine to focus on one kind of weapon.
A good martial artist better know about the weapons and "styles" of as many places as he can so that he has a better chance of surviving any nasty surprises. (Sorry, Nasty)
Khukuris have all kinds of good things you can use, but so does a ball peen hammer, a climbing axe, garden shears, tree pruner, golf club, etc...
If you learn to move your body correctly, you will have many more opportunites to take advantage of the khukuri's many nice features.
- Joined
- Dec 4, 2002
- Messages
- 1,418
Well DIJ, what I was getting at was the unique abilities the Khukuri has...again very few weapons can also provide a martial art for empty hands...within the blade are the basics of many styles like wing chun ... that is because of the unique physics in the blade are the same as those developed in these martial systems.
My first experience with the Khukuri was provided by someone that taught the martial aspects of it, I have continued with its discovery myself after a few years with him and have after his death for about 25 years ( I take it very seriously) ...still feel as there is a lot more there.
As for your view on weapons in general and development of personal ability no argument I have studied a lot of styles and have found no one style has it all. That is often a debate on many martial arts forums though I have found more in newer students its an issue. It appears that most teachers and higher ranks tend to agree.
There are varying concepts on weapons some apply the weapon to the person some the person to the weapon, in fact as you know FMA systems are for the most part built on a rhythm system that is applied to any weapon or empty hands.
Chinese systems as most Japanese styles tend to treat each weapon based on the weapon, Butterfly knives are not treated the same as a saber even tough they are both blades. The Khukuri is different it has an ability to bridge gaps.
One thing I see as the Khukuri is now becoming a little more well known is that some styles are taking it into their system as their weapon...because there is no "Khukuri martial art" I am afraid the style will dictate the use instead of the Khukuri speaking for itself and teaching.
I have no intent on any kind of a debate over the right or wrong of blades in a fight. Not telling anyone to carry one or not. What I would say is if you do you need to know how to use it, and if you do what that is going to mean.
What I had hoped was that there might be some martial artist that use the Khukuri and would want to discuss application concepts etc...but if not its ok because it is being talked about on dozens of martial arts forums.
The sad part is most of those people dont have the knowledge or the love of the Khukuri like the members here have.
My first experience with the Khukuri was provided by someone that taught the martial aspects of it, I have continued with its discovery myself after a few years with him and have after his death for about 25 years ( I take it very seriously) ...still feel as there is a lot more there.
As for your view on weapons in general and development of personal ability no argument I have studied a lot of styles and have found no one style has it all. That is often a debate on many martial arts forums though I have found more in newer students its an issue. It appears that most teachers and higher ranks tend to agree.
There are varying concepts on weapons some apply the weapon to the person some the person to the weapon, in fact as you know FMA systems are for the most part built on a rhythm system that is applied to any weapon or empty hands.
Chinese systems as most Japanese styles tend to treat each weapon based on the weapon, Butterfly knives are not treated the same as a saber even tough they are both blades. The Khukuri is different it has an ability to bridge gaps.
One thing I see as the Khukuri is now becoming a little more well known is that some styles are taking it into their system as their weapon...because there is no "Khukuri martial art" I am afraid the style will dictate the use instead of the Khukuri speaking for itself and teaching.
I have no intent on any kind of a debate over the right or wrong of blades in a fight. Not telling anyone to carry one or not. What I would say is if you do you need to know how to use it, and if you do what that is going to mean.
What I had hoped was that there might be some martial artist that use the Khukuri and would want to discuss application concepts etc...but if not its ok because it is being talked about on dozens of martial arts forums.
The sad part is most of those people dont have the knowledge or the love of the Khukuri like the members here have.
- Joined
- Feb 23, 1999
- Messages
- 4,855
You have to be able to play the cards you're dealt.DannyinJapan said:
But sometimes you get to deal.
Or cheat.
Preferences are ok.
- Joined
- Oct 9, 2003
- Messages
- 5,594
Thats fine with me. Ive been training with a few different HI products for about a year now, I guess.
How about we start with the cho?
It seems that the cho CAN be used to good effect. You can pinch a big piece of skin between your thumb and the cho, for example.
It wouldnt take much effort to tear, either...
- Joined
- Feb 23, 1999
- Messages
- 4,855
Azis, Perhaps you can share some of the insights on the khukuri you have discovered.Azis said:
One thing that was helpful to me as I "asked the khukuri" was to consider the potential of 4 different grips, forward, edge up and down, and reverse, edge in and out. Each have potential applications, which vary a bit from knife to knife.
- Joined
- Oct 9, 2003
- Messages
- 5,594
You know, I just read my own posts, and I really do sound like a know it all a$$hole. Can someone tell me how to write a post without sounding like that?
- Joined
- Dec 4, 2002
- Messages
- 1,418
Howard...Thats somewhat like the karambit, there are several positions it can be held in and they all seam to work. It is versatile that way unlike some blades in that you can still achieve a lot of what the blade is capable of in most positions.
I use it in a forward manner with the wrist slightly bent forward. ( like a sun punch in martial arts) This aligns the top of the blade with the forearm which gives the thrust the entire arm for support. The butt tilted slightly into the palm so it can recover from the natural fulcrum with the blade in the hand extended forward. Striking down on the trip of the blade the butt will go up so the palm position is important.
From this position look at the whole weapon and what it can be used for look at its thrust, its capture, blocking, deflecting moves. The thrust, the chop, the slice, the impact, the traps and so forth. Look at the power from each from each direction of the weapon the sides the top etc..
The blade has several curves and each contains a whole host of physics that can be applied. If the thread progresses I can get into several things,
As a side note there are a lot of martial artist gathering in Atlanta for a meetup to correspond with the blade show. I will be doing a (FREE) seminar for them on the Khukuri.
I use it in a forward manner with the wrist slightly bent forward. ( like a sun punch in martial arts) This aligns the top of the blade with the forearm which gives the thrust the entire arm for support. The butt tilted slightly into the palm so it can recover from the natural fulcrum with the blade in the hand extended forward. Striking down on the trip of the blade the butt will go up so the palm position is important.
From this position look at the whole weapon and what it can be used for look at its thrust, its capture, blocking, deflecting moves. The thrust, the chop, the slice, the impact, the traps and so forth. Look at the power from each from each direction of the weapon the sides the top etc..
The blade has several curves and each contains a whole host of physics that can be applied. If the thread progresses I can get into several things,
As a side note there are a lot of martial artist gathering in Atlanta for a meetup to correspond with the blade show. I will be doing a (FREE) seminar for them on the Khukuri.
- Joined
- Oct 9, 2003
- Messages
- 5,594
Have you tried this with an HI hanshee/kerambit?
The blade has more to work with than one of the little claw-looking kerambits.
I bet you'd find even more ways to move...
The blade has more to work with than one of the little claw-looking kerambits.
I bet you'd find even more ways to move...
- Joined
- Dec 4, 2002
- Messages
- 1,418
who are you asking?
I have several Hi karmbits and use them often much like the Khukuri, the Hi karmabit is a lot like a small BDC (one of my favorite)
I like the HI karmabit becasue it allows such multiple uses unlike the very small ones that tend to limit the use because the blade is too small
I have several Hi karmbits and use them often much like the Khukuri, the Hi karmabit is a lot like a small BDC (one of my favorite)
I like the HI karmabit becasue it allows such multiple uses unlike the very small ones that tend to limit the use because the blade is too small
- Joined
- Feb 23, 1999
- Messages
- 4,855
We love ya anyway!DannyinJapan said:
I agree this is a basic position. This enables the chop, and the powerful thrust you described. A unique feature of the khukuri is that the handle will not be parallel with the line of force in a forward thrust when held in this manner.Azis said:
From this basic position, you have probably considered:Azis said:
- rotate to reverse grip edge in for a powerful drop thrust towards the ground.
- rotate to forward grip edge up for a trapping position where the blade can be wrapped around a neck or a limb and then the tip grasped by the other hand. This sets up a throw that will be combined with a powerful leveraged cut.
- rotate to reverse grip edge out for sweeping close-range cuts and powerful stabs. This is a way of adjusting effective range with the khukuri.
- rotate to forward grip edge up for hooking attacks that go around defenses and reduce range
etc, etc ...
I'm sure a lot of people here would be interested. Any chance of producing video of your demo?Azis said:
- Joined
- May 18, 1999
- Messages
- 15,395
I know nothing about the martial arts but I can damn sure attest to the cho being considerably dangerous,:grumpy:DannyinJapan said:
along with a loose scabbard anyway.
Yesterday I grabbed up an armload of khuks I had setting around my desk to take to the back room for packing and putting away.
I had forgotten that the scabbard on the new Foxy Folly was extremely loose and that I had started the repair but hadn't finished it.
I was all right until I got nearly to the back room and the load shifted causing the FF to slide partially out of the scabbard only stopping when it hit and the point of the sharp side of the cho entered my left index finger a decent ways.
Going in at an angle made the cut about 3/8"-7/16" wide and maybe, just guessing here, as much as a 1/4" deep at the very point.
I was too busy trying to put everything down without getting it all bloody to really pay attention.
Pissed me off because now I have to deal with an injury albeit a small one while we're away for a couple of weeks or so.:grumpy:
The FF is nicely sharp and entered with no effort at all, kinda surprised me the way it just slid in with only a little of its weight behind it while I was watching and trying to stop it from happening.
I can only imagine what it would be like to have a piece of your flesh trapped between the cho and someone's thumb that wasn't intent on treating you nicely.
- Joined
- Oct 9, 2003
- Messages
- 5,594
get better soon, Yvsa.
Oh yeah, I forgot to specify what skin.
The skin under your triceps is good, as is the skin of your upper thighs and the ears....
Oh yeah, I forgot to specify what skin.
The skin under your triceps is good, as is the skin of your upper thighs and the ears....
- Joined
- May 12, 2003
- Messages
- 1,606
Well, today is my birthday...I have had my mandatory birthday steak...and my obligatory birthday beer...and after I finish this...I will adjourn to my porch and smoke my requisite birthday cigar....and since I am in the mood to indulge myself...I will post one last time and then let it rest.
The title of this thread shows a paradox...the knife for self defense?
Once a knife or any other weapon...has been presented into a situation...there is no such thing as defense. There is only survival.
A knife is by definition offensive when used as a weapon. Granted there are those who can parry with a blade. Hang with me as I continue.
You may be in a situation where you are protecting something..your life..others...maybe even property...although I cannot recommend using deadly force to protect a "thing". However...just because that may be your motive...once the lines are drawn...you better drop all ideas of "morality".
Defense is a myth used by lawyers. Who started what is for the courts to decide. If a guy pulls a knife...and you pull a gun...they decide who was the aggressor.
OK...so enough about that...and on to the "Real Business"
Combat.
All contact with the opponent should be with the intention of killing.
There are no submission holds...there is no tap out.
All blocks should be made with the intent, not of stopping a given attack,but with destroying thre opponents ability to continue the attack.
You want a "for instance"?...Imagine an opponent coming in with an overhand knife blow in a hammer fist presentation...your reaction is an easy overhand block with a scissor hand to the forearm...maybe you trap...maybe you slide off like water...whatever...point being...the intention of the block should be to destroy the arm at the point of contact. All blocks should be delivered as disabling strikes. Period.
This is not dancing...it is not half speed choreography...this is killing.
One of my instructors taught me a mantra of sorts...bless him...it was one of the few things I learned that stayed with me...
Strike with the fingertips...if you miss strike with the knuckles..if you miss strike with the forearm...if you miss strike with the elbow...and so on and so on ...in a never ending series of attacks. Attack until you can no longer do so...or until your opponent is unable to continue.
With a blade of any type your objective is to cut.Period. Cutting is the only way to kill with a knife. You must cause the opponent to cease all hostile action or be incapable of doing such. That means serious, terminal,definitive action. Period.
Most folks in law enforcement will tell you the magic distance is 21 feet. That is how close a person needs to be to cut you. You have to have them beyond 21 feet in order to control the threat without injury...this is based on being able to pull a firearm and shoot them before they get to you...with only a knife...all bets are off...And I can promise you...if somebody is intent on cutting you...you will bleed...no matter what your training is. SO steel yourself for that reality. You will be cut.
OK..so you martial guys are saying "Yeah...but my instructor says I can roll my arms or hands so to take the blow in a less destructive area..."A good knife man will piece you out...dissect you...he will cut the tendons in your knife hand and arm...then where you gonna be?
Talk to some of the escrima guys...they love this stuff.
This ain't about talk fellas...it is about living or not...
Finally...I broke one of my own rules...talking about this on the internet in front of god and everybody is bad policy...WHY? becasue God forbid you ever get into a full on deadly force situ...and God Forbid you do kill somebody...the lawyers will use this conversation as proof of premeditation and malice...
"Mr. Justice did you intend to harm this person?" what are you gonna say?
"Nope...I didn't want to kill him."
The next thing said in the court room will be..."Your Honor I offer as evidence these transcripts taken from a public internet forum...where Mr. Justice was heard to say..." This ain't dancing...this is killing". Those are your words aren't they Mr. Justice?"...I can hear the gavel pounding now...
Then I wil regret being a part of this conversation...in fact I already do.
Shane
The title of this thread shows a paradox...the knife for self defense?
Once a knife or any other weapon...has been presented into a situation...there is no such thing as defense. There is only survival.
A knife is by definition offensive when used as a weapon. Granted there are those who can parry with a blade. Hang with me as I continue.
You may be in a situation where you are protecting something..your life..others...maybe even property...although I cannot recommend using deadly force to protect a "thing". However...just because that may be your motive...once the lines are drawn...you better drop all ideas of "morality".
Defense is a myth used by lawyers. Who started what is for the courts to decide. If a guy pulls a knife...and you pull a gun...they decide who was the aggressor.
OK...so enough about that...and on to the "Real Business"
Combat.
All contact with the opponent should be with the intention of killing.
There are no submission holds...there is no tap out.
All blocks should be made with the intent, not of stopping a given attack,but with destroying thre opponents ability to continue the attack.
You want a "for instance"?...Imagine an opponent coming in with an overhand knife blow in a hammer fist presentation...your reaction is an easy overhand block with a scissor hand to the forearm...maybe you trap...maybe you slide off like water...whatever...point being...the intention of the block should be to destroy the arm at the point of contact. All blocks should be delivered as disabling strikes. Period.
This is not dancing...it is not half speed choreography...this is killing.
One of my instructors taught me a mantra of sorts...bless him...it was one of the few things I learned that stayed with me...
Strike with the fingertips...if you miss strike with the knuckles..if you miss strike with the forearm...if you miss strike with the elbow...and so on and so on ...in a never ending series of attacks. Attack until you can no longer do so...or until your opponent is unable to continue.
With a blade of any type your objective is to cut.Period. Cutting is the only way to kill with a knife. You must cause the opponent to cease all hostile action or be incapable of doing such. That means serious, terminal,definitive action. Period.
Most folks in law enforcement will tell you the magic distance is 21 feet. That is how close a person needs to be to cut you. You have to have them beyond 21 feet in order to control the threat without injury...this is based on being able to pull a firearm and shoot them before they get to you...with only a knife...all bets are off...And I can promise you...if somebody is intent on cutting you...you will bleed...no matter what your training is. SO steel yourself for that reality. You will be cut.
OK..so you martial guys are saying "Yeah...but my instructor says I can roll my arms or hands so to take the blow in a less destructive area..."A good knife man will piece you out...dissect you...he will cut the tendons in your knife hand and arm...then where you gonna be?
Talk to some of the escrima guys...they love this stuff.
This ain't about talk fellas...it is about living or not...
Finally...I broke one of my own rules...talking about this on the internet in front of god and everybody is bad policy...WHY? becasue God forbid you ever get into a full on deadly force situ...and God Forbid you do kill somebody...the lawyers will use this conversation as proof of premeditation and malice...
"Mr. Justice did you intend to harm this person?" what are you gonna say?
"Nope...I didn't want to kill him."
The next thing said in the court room will be..."Your Honor I offer as evidence these transcripts taken from a public internet forum...where Mr. Justice was heard to say..." This ain't dancing...this is killing". Those are your words aren't they Mr. Justice?"...I can hear the gavel pounding now...
Then I wil regret being a part of this conversation...in fact I already do.
Shane
- Joined
- Oct 9, 2003
- Messages
- 5,594
Don't feel bad, Shane. you didnt do anything but repeat stuff we've already said in this and other threads.
If you're guilty, so are we.
If you're guilty, so are we.
- Joined
- Oct 25, 2004
- Messages
- 3,178
DannyinJapan said:
[BAD PUN]
And if the hands are otherwise occupied, one could always bite in a pinch.
[/BAD PUN]