Sellers disclaiming shipping liability

tyyreaun

tyyreaun

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Somewhat random, but I've seen a number of sellers specifically disclaiming shipping liability - that is, saying the buyer is responsible for insurance and the seller will not be responsible once the item is dropped off at the post office. I'm pretty sure that wouldn't actual work in a PayPal dispute - I'm guessing that, short of a contract signed by both parties, PayPal would side with the buyer in a dispute over a lost or damaged item.

Just curious, though, has anyone had to deal with the above situation as a buyer? How did it turn out?

Similarly, in situations where both buyer and seller do actually agree on the buyer assuming shipping liability (overseas sales, for example), is there any way to enforce that agreement within PayPal's protection structure?

And of course, personally I wouldn't buy from anyone with such disclaimers. Not that I'd be worried about losing the cash so much as I wouldn't want to deal with the headache.
 
It would have to be negotiated into selling price IMO. Either the seller just provides insurance and includes that into his selling price OR the seller states outright that the buyer should insure if they wish and that insurance on delivery is not included. For instance, ebay requires the buyer to purchase insurance if they wish to, but paypal will almost always side with the buyer for non-delivery regardless of the terms.

On a side note, I think even USPS insures automatically up to $100 (for priority), but good luck trying to collect on it. Seems there are very mixed reviews on collecting on postal insurance.
 
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Pretty sure that little blurb is not legally sound, and PayPal will determine who's liable if something goes wrong. I imagine it's on the seller to ensure that their product reaches their buyer.

Every time I see one of those blurbs I cringe. Never bought from one either.
 
lieferung said:
Pretty sure that little blurb is not legally sound, and PayPal will determine who's liable if something goes wrong. I imagine it's on the seller to ensure that their product reaches their buyer.

Every time I see one of those blurbs I cringe. Never bought from one either.
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Better just to move on with sellers like that. Friends and family , net to me , buyers responsible , add 4 %.
 
LEGION 12 said:
Better just to move on with sellers like that. Friends and family , net to me , buyers responsible , add 4 %.
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No kidding - move on in that situation.

They can say what they want with "not responsible for loss during shipping"; but paypal is not going to see it their way.
What kind of knuckle head says that any way? Not someone I will deal with.
 
In the past I've made purchases from sellers who say that, but only because I know USPS and Paypal rules requure that the seller is responsible til the package is safely delivered. If the seller doesn't realize that, it's on them.

I won't do Paypal F&F though because some of that protection ia dropped (and asking for FF makes you seem like a scammer).
 
While I don't see myself agreeing to terms of taking on shipping liability & or paying for the shipping and insurance, I would adhere to anything I did agree to. PP would very likely rule for the buyer, but I would not file the claim.
So IMO the options are pass on the deal, renegotiate the terms, or agree to the terms and follow through. I would likely go with pass.


I have in the past asked international buyers to take on the liability and pay any additional costs, but this is when I was not able to buy insurance and get tracking due to their location.
 
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The seller is always responsible for the item to arrive at the correct address. There are always some people who are not ready to act with integrity, and like to avoid responsibility. It's good that paypal won't encourage them, or side with them.
 
In all fifty states, the law says the risk of loss by default is on the seller UNLESS the parties agree otherwise. That seems fair since the seller packs the goods (BIG deal when damage is the issue - sometimes even loss) and selects the shipper. So why would a buyer agree to put the risk of loss on him when he has virtually no ability to protect the goods in shipment. Dunno. Never agreed myself.

There are private insurance companies which insure shipments against loss, but that route seems unrealistic for even an expense knife.

USPS "insurance," as poor as it is, is sold to shippers, not addressees, although a addressee may make a claim if: "in possession of the original retail mailing receipt, or in possession of the online label record or computer printout of the Web-based application as described in 3.1d, for lost articles."

But:

"All Priority Mail Express signed for by the addressee (or agent) constitutes a valid delivery, and no indemnity for loss is paid. For Priority Mail Express items not requiring a signature, a delivered scan event constitutes a valid delivery, and no indemnity for loss is paid.
. . .
If a claim is filed because some or all of the contents are missing or damaged, the addressee must retain the mailing container, including any damaged articles, all packaging, and any contents received. Upon written request by the USPS, the addressee must make this proof available to the local Post Office for inspection, retention, and disposition in accordance with the claims decision. Failure to do so will result in denial of the claim. (If only the outer packaging is submitted, indemnity can be limited to $100 for insured, $50 for COD, $100 for Registered Mail, and $100 for Priority Mail Express.)

Then you can fight with USPS over proof of value.
 
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I wouldn't deal with folks like this... If I'm a seller, the deal is not done for me, until the buyer is happy with their purchase. I typically don't insure things under a certain amount. Above that amount, I WILL insure it for the value, since it will be a bigger financial hit to me, to make the deal right in the event of buyer not happy, damaged/lost in transit, etc. Paypal fees are 2.9% + $.30, not 3 or 4%. When I see this, I just ask them what the total amount is with the 4%! Then they have to do the math themselves.
 
This is why I won't do deals internationally, even though overseas buyers always complain to me. I will not accept the risk leaving the country, I don't want to pass that risk to you nor can I apparently according to PayPal's terms, and I'm not going to do a Friends & Family deal.

As a buyer, even if I know that Paypal will side with me, I won't buy if someone has this disclaimer or simply doesn't understand that insurance is on them to protect themselves.
 
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I would consider buying from a seller who gives the all-in price (including shipping with no liability "shifting") for G&S, and from no one else.
 
I've had the situation happen with both domestic and foreign vendors. PayPal will side with the buyer in cases that the item does not show as delivered, if it does it can get a little sticky. In reference to most of the Chinese
vendors they will only stand behind you only if the item was never delivered, the only problem is that it takes forever to get back the money. I much prefer to get the item through the famous bidding site and pay with Paypal rather than pay them directly. The bottom line is that it pays to stick with PayPal, you have a much better chance of being refunded.
 
Priority includes $50 on everything, beyond this is an additional cost...this is why it is important to be very clear up front with your sale terms.

If someone says that cost of insurance is included in the sale, then it can be inferred that they will refund full amount if it's lost (highly unlikely) forever. The opposite is true too, if someone doesn't want insurance or only limited (like $50) then they share in the risk of loss in shipping. The obligation of the USPS (or other carrier) is from time of receipt to time of delivery, outside of that they aren't liable for any loss. Full on losses are very uncommon, I had one get wet once (and cause D2 to rust) but theft/loss is very rare.
 
Anything could be negotiated, but the default is for the seller to assume responsibility. I would never agree to buying something, if I knew that it may not arrive. The insurance is for the seller alone.
 
Peter Hartwig said:
While I don't see myself agreeing to terms of taking on shipping liability & or paying for the shipping and insurance, I would adhere to anything I did agree to. PP would very likely rule for the buyer, but I would not file the claim.
So IMO the options are pass on the deal, renegotiate the terms, or agree to the terms and follow through. I would likely go with pass.
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Thomas Linton said:
In all fifty states, the law says the risk of loss by default is on the seller UNLESS the parties agree otherwise.
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I have passed on four sales in the Busse exchange recently because of this kind of wording, basically the seller saying their responsibility ends when they hand it to the post office and that sales are final. While I don't think that would hold up in a paypal claim, I view it like Peter Hartwig expressed above -- that by buying I had agreed to their terms in the listing. After reading what Thomas Linton wrote above, I wonder if paypal would indeed hold up for the buyer or say that you had agreed to the seller's terms and therefore forfeited your protection?

I'm still not going to buy from a seller that posts that kind of thing because it shows that they don't understand the sentiment here that the deal is not done until both parties are happy.
 
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