Sellers disclaiming shipping liability

SS, I follow your argument, PayPal issues aside, except the seller packs (that is, protects) the item, addresses the package, can easily buy insurance that protects him, and selects the shipper. That gives the shipper much more control over delivery than the buyer. That is the logic of the law that places the risk on the seller unless the parties bargain otherwise.
 
tyyreaun said:
My original question was when would a disclaimer posted on a "for sale" listing override PayPal's terms (e.g., when both parties explicitly agree to different terms ahead of time, like with international shipping). So far, no one's mentioned any way for a seller to get a buyer to "opt out" of buyer protection terms in a way that would stand up to PayPal's scrutiny, so I don't think there is one.
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Unless I missed it I don't think anyone has provided a case either way. The likely reason is that once they form such an agreement(between buyer and seller) they abide by it-PP never gets involved. IMO it is poor form to agree then go to PP for help if it doesn't work out for you. If PP did get involved the odds are they would favor the buyer, but PP can be unpredictable at times.
But I wouldn't agree to those terms in most situations
 
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017 said:
I'm from Australia, an apparent "safe" shipping destination. I know some countries have problems with light fingerdness, so perhaps the Blade HQ policy I've referenced is to factor in a worst case scenario?
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I think "safe" destination or not, there is always more risk in shipping internationally. The knife has to go through customs, through multiple shipping services if you use national posts, etc. Even if the risk of outright theft by shipping service personnel is low, there is still a higher-than-normal risk of accident or mistake that causes the package to get lost. Moreover, at least the US Postal Service won't insure packages past the point they leave the US. You could use UPS or Fedex, but then you'd be paying through the nose.

017 said:
I have no faith in credit card charge backs, because I've had zero luck trying to get a credit card charge back/reverse the one time I've ran into a problem.
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Yeah, this might be a difference in how credit card laws and policies work in different countries. In the US, I've filed three chargebacks in my life, two of which (one counterfeit product, one wrong product sent where the company didn't respond to my emails) were adjudicated in my favor quickly and easily. The third was a problem with a canceled flight and the credit card company said the airline's terms of service took precedence :p.
 
Thomas Linton said:
SS, I follow your argument, PayPal issues aside, except the seller packs (that is, protects) the item, addresses the package, can easily buy insurance that protects him, and selects the shipper. That gives the shipper much more control over delivery than the buyer. That is the logic of the law that places the risk on the seller unless the parties bargain otherwise.
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More control, yes, but for a significant time the item passes entirely into the hands of a third party agent who we can't even assume is acting in good faith in every instance and we rely on an inconsistent application of insurance to cover ourselves.

My only point -- which admittedly misses the point of this thread :) -- is that there is no moral or legal reason that a seller can't negotiate away his or her risk when it comes to shipping loss, PayPal issues aside. It is the legal default for sellers to accept the risk, fine, but it is not objectional to change those default terms if a seller wanted to.
 
017 said:
It all depends on the seller and what rates they can get. DLT Trading appear to have a good deal with FedEx, as they offer FedEx Economy International and Priority International for only a few dollars more than USPS First Class International, and a rediculous amount less than USPS Priority International and USPS Express International (in my experience there is, on average, no speed difference between USPS First Class and Priority).
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True - I'm mainly referring to the normal retail rates that a forum seller without a volume discount would pay to ship with UPS or Fedex. I've never seen them be cheaper than USPS.
 
Peter Hartwig said:
Unless I missed it I don't think anyone has provided a case either way. The likely reason is that once they form such an agreement(between buyer and seller) they abide by it-PP never gets involved. IMO it is poor form to agree then go to PP for help if it doesn't work out for you. If PP did get involved the odds are they would favor the buyer, but PP can be unpredictable at times.
But I wouldn't agree to those terms in most situations
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I've seen at least one GB&U thread where on an international deal the buyer agreed to accept all risk and then when the knife didn't arrived filed a claim because the seller could only provide USPS tracking which stopped at the border but could not track in the destination country.
 
I appreciate these threads. It lets me identify who actually gets it and who I will deal with.

As a Seller I'm obligated to do what is necessary to get the package delivered. I was paid to deliver an item Not drop it off at the shipper. If that entails me Self-Insuring so be it- The actual details of the shipment don't matter as long as the item is delivered safely.

Personally there's something special about strangers sending me money based solely on my reputation. I have integrity and I feel a responsibility to deliver what they paid for. There's personal satisfaction in doing it right and people who have received my packages know that.
 
Lone_Wolfe said:
It's a waste of words, because paypal G&S is your friend.
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LW's (pretty in pink) comment, was as far as I needed to read. :thumbsup::thumbsup:

When I pay using the PayPal Goods option, I have the peace of mind knowing, that if the merchandise doesn't arrive, or isn't as described, PP has my back.
 
Couldn’t agree more BD.
I have this same attitude when entering someone’s home or business and doing an AC or heat repair.
It’s called having pride in all you do.
It’s a great feeling when trust is given to you and you don’t piss all over it.
Joe

braillediver said:
I appreciate these threads. It lets me identify who actually gets it and who I will deal with.

As a Seller I'm obligated to do what is necessary to get the package delivered. I was paid to deliver an item Not drop it off at the shipper. If that entails me Self-Insuring so be it- The actual details of the shipment don't matter as long as the item is delivered safely.

Personally there's something special about strangers sending me money based solely on my reputation. I have integrity and I feel a responsibility to deliver what they paid for. There's personal satisfaction in doing it right and people who have received my packages know that.
Click to expand...
 
SpySmasher said:
More control, yes, but for a significant time the item passes entirely into the hands of a third party agent who we can't even assume is acting in good faith in every instance and we rely on an inconsistent application of insurance to cover ourselves.

My only point -- which admittedly misses the point of this thread :) -- is that there is no moral or legal reason that a seller can't negotiate away his or her risk when it comes to shipping loss, PayPal issues aside. It is the legal default for sellers to accept the risk, fine, but it is not objectional to change those default terms if a seller wanted to.
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OK so lets look at the other side of this argument. Suppose I send a Money Order and it doesn't arrive, using your logic who assumes that risk? Is it shared as well? Does the seller still need to send the knife?
 
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