Sellers disclaiming shipping liability

tyyreaun said:
Similarly, in situations where both buyer and seller do actually agree on the buyer assuming shipping liability (overseas sales, for example), is there any way to enforce that agreement within PayPal's protection structure?
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I have been wanting to ask this question myself. We see all the time in the exchange that some sellers will ship overseas if the buyer agrees that it is no longer the seller's responsibility once the package leaves the seller's hands and is delivered to the shipper. However, if the package is lost, how does paypal see this if the buyer files a claim?
 
Hard Knocks said:
I have been wanting to ask this question myself. We see all the time in the exchange that some sellers will ship overseas if the buyer agrees that it is no longer the seller's responsibility once the package leaves the seller's hands and is delivered to the shipper. However, if the package is lost, how does paypal see this if the buyer files a claim?
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I've wondered the same thing myself. I used to ship internationally, but only deal in the US now. There are exceptions though, especially if I know you well. @Andy the Aussie, I'd be glad to ship to this bloke any time!
 
And having insurance isn't a sure thing collecting on a claim. Even though my situation was simple and straight forward they kept denying my claim until I got a Postmaster involved. So not only is getting the product to the buyer the sellers responsibility, Don't hold your breath waiting for a Postal insurance claim refund.
 
TOMBSTONE said:
And having insurance isn't a sure thing collecting on a claim. Even though my situation was simple and straight forward they kept denying my claim until I got a Postmaster involved. So not only is getting the product to the buyer the sellers responsibility, Don't hold your breath waiting for a Postal insurance claim refund.
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I’ve wondered when filing a claim with the USPS (priority mail, standard minimum coverage) does one file for the amount you the seller paid for the item (lower) or the amount you sold the item for (higher).

And what proof do they require?
 
annr said:
I’ve wondered when filing a claim with the USPS (priority mail, standard minimum coverage) does one file for the amount you the seller paid for the item (lower) or the amount you sold the item for (higher).

And what proof do they require?
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I didn't have an issue with the amount, they didn't want to cover any of it. You can insure for any amount but depending on alot of factors who knows what they will pay out or at all. It's especially problematic for customs or discontinued models that sold for hundreds less but are higher on secondary market
 
I could understand if the package were bound for another country, which is why I don't ship outside of the US. (Customs and no real means of tracking/verification.)

For domestic packages, it is the seller's responsibility.
 
Thomas Linton had a very good "factual" post, #13, and thank you, sir. I will need a bit more coffee before I re-read it.
 
TOMBSTONE said:
I didn't have an issue with the amount, they didn't want to cover any of it. You can insure for any amount but depending on alot of factors who knows what they will pay out or at all. It's especially problematic for customs or discontinued models that sold for hundreds less but are higher on secondary market
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I’m not surprised that they made it nearly impossible to collect— seems like what they do.

While one may be able to insure for a wide range of values, I’m not sure that even a cooperative insurer would honor an outrageously high number without appropriate proof of value. That’s why when I send something truly valuable, I insure it through a special policy where I can establish value with a replacement cost appraisal from the maker or other expert that the insurance company accepts in advance.

Unfortunately, most people aren’t going to do that for smallish trades, and it probably wouldn’t be cost effective for most of these knife transactions.

Really shabby that they made you work so hard to get your claim paid!
 
annr said:
I’ve wondered when filing a claim with the USPS (priority mail, standard minimum coverage) does one file for the amount you the seller paid for the item (lower) or the amount you sold the item for (higher).

And what proof do they require?
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I insure the item for what I sold it for. If nothing else, it is documentation that the item has a particular value...

Why pay for insurance if you aren't going to insure for the full value?
 
I've seen guys have this big, "boilerplate" list of this, that, and the other in their sale area. Kind of a disclaimer. I guess the next time I see one that makes sense, and I like it, I'll copy it and start using it in my sale to protect my redneck butt. :D
Thanks everybody for opening my eyes.
 
I can’t tell you how many knives I’ve passed on when “not responsible, etc.” is part of the deal. I may want the knife, but I don’t want the potential hassle. The seller is telling you that “Heads he wins and tails you lose.”
 
I have an expression I use for guys like this. If you believe them "I've got a bridge for sale but you got to hurry because it's going fast." I'll pass thank you.
 
017 said:
Blade HQ have this caveat for international customers:

https://www.bladehq.com/cat--Shipping-Information--146

The Customs proviso is perfectly fine, but I've never come across retailers who absolve themselves from lost or stolen orders. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting it?

I really want one of their M4 Para 3's if and/or when they're released. However, if this is truly part of their international policies, then I'll gladly stick to the regular stuff from National Knives and DLT Trading.
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Certainly your choice as to doing business with them or not, but International shipping is a different game from domestic, and some find the losses higher then they are willing to take. Some dealers won't ship international at all( so I have heard). Of course some countries are better then others to ship to. There are however added risks which can include different countries knife laws& going through customs, not being able to insure and lack of tracking as well as multiple carrier services used(each will blame the other without tracking).
When shipping to Asian countries I think I would have just about as much chance of a successful arrival by throwing the knife in the street in front of my house.:) - a little bitter about those losses.
All that said, I fully understand your position and am just lucky not to have to deal with it.
 
If you don't want to buy from someone with a "no responsibility if lost during shipping" disclaimer that's certainly your prerogative but no one should be outraged about them. There's no inherent moral obligation for a seller to assume all the risk of an inherently risky transaction. You think there is such an obligation because you are used to operating in a retail environment where the retailers assume all the risk. Except retailers build those losses into their pricing -- you pay for those "lost in shipping" knives every time you buy a knife from a retailer.

Some poor guy from Alabama who sold you a knife from his own collection is no retailer. When he loses out on a knife because of a postal thief or because the package gets left in front of a yurt in Mongolia instead of its intended destination, it's NOT fair. You may, as the seller, be the one protected from loss by PayPal but don't think for a minute that it's fair and it certainly doesn't make "both parties happy."

One thing that should be noted is that if you do buy from a seller who has made such a disclaimer, you better abide by it. Don't be making a PayPal claim just because you know they'll side with you regardless. An honest person stands by their agreements whether they are enforceable or not. An intelligent person will decide, as seller or buyer, how much risk they are willing to take, and spell it out clearly for everyone involved.
 
017 said:
The Customs proviso is perfectly fine, but I've never come across retailers who absolve themselves from lost or stolen orders. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting it?
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Similar to the original question with PayPal, though, I don't know if this would stand up in a dispute. They ship something to you in, say, the UK, it never arrives, they refuse to refund or replace it. You file a credit card dispute. Would a line of text buried somewhere on their policies page be enough to protect them from a chargeback?

Of course, my understanding is that credit card policies outside the US aren't nearly as pro-consumer as the ones we use here, so it might be a moot point.


SpySmasher said:
If you don't want to buy from someone with a "no responsibility if lost during shipping" disclaimer that's certainly your prerogative but no one should be outraged about them. There's no inherent moral obligation for a seller to assume all the risk of an inherently risky transaction.

...

One thing that should be noted is that if you do buy from a seller who has made such a disclaimer, you better abide by it. Don't be making a PayPal claim just because you know they'll side with you regardless. An honest person stands by their agreements whether they are enforceable or not. An intelligent person will decide, as seller or buyer, how much risk they are willing to take, and spell it out clearly for everyone involved.
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The error in your logic is that, by using PayPal, both sides agree to abide by their terms of service, which places the burden of delivery assurance on the seller. My original question was when would a disclaimer posted on a "for sale" listing override PayPal's terms (e.g., when both parties explicitly agree to different terms ahead of time, like with international shipping). So far, no one's mentioned any way for a seller to get a buyer to "opt out" of buyer protection terms in a way that would stand up to PayPal's scrutiny, so I don't think there is one.

If you don't like their terms, you could just accept money orders or some other form of payment. No one's forcing sellers to use PayPal.
 
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