Semi-production/semi-custom

Keith Montgomery

Keith Montgomery

Joined
May 9, 2000
Messages
29,205
What do you think of this trend? It appears that a few makers are going this route, at least in part. Many of these makers are still producing handmade single author knives.

If you don't know already, what I am referring to is the trend for makers to have parts made out of house. The makers then assemble the parts, doing whatever degree of final fit and finish that is required.

My personal view is that it is a good thing as long as there is full disclosure about how the knives are made. It is a way for makers to produce more knives at lower prices, and it gives them an avenue to making more income. More people can afford these knives, so it broadens the customer base that the makers will have to draw from. The customers that purchase these knives may well someday go to full fledged customs, and that is good.

It is good for the customer that wants something different, and possibly better, than what they can get from the manufacturers. The fact that these knives are generally lower priced means that people that are right now purchasing upper end production knives will have another area to explore.

Overall, it appears to be a win - win situation, but I am sure that there are some pitfalls. What say you?

Also, are these knives all that different than what is being produced by Chris Reeve and William Henry?
 
As long as these knives are not represented as customs or handmade and there's total disclosure as which components are machine made I don't see a problem with them.
 
I know we all agree that disclosure is the MOST important aspect of this method of manufacture.

I would be most interested in knowing that the maker did the all-important design and final finishing. if the rough-cut parts are handled by a jobber I could care less.

Comparing to a WH folder? I don't think so. Who can dispute the wonderful quality of those knives. But, who knows the name of the craftsman who finished yours, and was it the same person who finished mine? It's a highly specialized factory. Matt Conable more than likely didn't finish grinding, lockup fitment and assembly.

In the case of the individual maker, I would *hope* for their final hand work to completion.

Coop
 
What Kevin said. As long as there is full disclosure, it's a good thing. Actually, a great thing. It's a way to keep prices down and production up. If there is a demand for a knife, it makes sense for the maker- more of his knives make it to market. It makes sense for the customers- if they're interested in the knife itself, not in the thought that "this was made personally by _______ _________". If I were a maker, I would want as many people people as possible to be able to enjoy my product. As long as there is strict control over material quality and fit and finish- there should be very little difference in the final product.

And finally, farming out the drudge work frees a knife maker from mundane, repetitive tasks that can be done by someone without high-level expertise. He is then free to focus on the aspects of his business that he enjoys, and where he is needed. Outsourcing is a good thing. And in this case, outsourcing creates jobs, rather than taking them away.
 
Typically the blades are laser cut and then machine surface ground, then the rest is by hand.

From what I have seen, I think this is a great trend. I especially like Bark River who specializes in such knives--and they also do fully customs as well. A nice hybrid.
 
SharpByCoop said:
...Comparing to a WH folder? I don't think so. Who can dispute the wonderful quality of those knives. But, who knows the name of the craftsman who finished yours, and was it the same person who finished mine? It's a highly specialized factory. Matt Conable more than likely didn't finish grinding, lockup fitment and assembly.

In the case of the individual maker, I would *hope* for their final hand work to completion.

Coop
Click to expand...

Just to answer your questions Coop - at WH Knives the frames and scales are jobbed to a factory in Japan. Kiku Matsuda (Japan) does all the blade grinding. Local guys (McMinville) assemble (there are 5 or 6 guys in the shop). Matt Conable does the final inspection and final sharpening. I don't know where the heat treating is done. I met Kiku at Blade West and although the guy doesn't speak a lick of English and I don't speak a lick of Japanese, I really did appreciate the artful treatment of the very aggressive blades he makes himself.

If I had my druthers, I would elminate the fine points and call anything that wasnt' the work of one person "benchmade" and leave it at that.

This includes anything other that blanking. I think at this point we can all agree (can't we?) that whether a piece of steel (stock removeal) is blanked by a hacksaw or a laser is irrelevant. When the primary (and secondary) bevels are done by CNC it becomes a lot blurrier to me as to where to draw the line. I'd just as soon see the "jobbing" done by another person as by a machine. If the CNC is doing work that can't actually be done by a person (like RJ's radiant bevels) then the CNC seems like a tool rather than a staff replacement.
 
My interest is in custom knives. Apart from collaboration pieces, I really would have no interest in a knife ground by someone other than the maker - much less by a machine. Not saying it's a bad thing (assuming disclosure), just saying it's not my thing.

Roger
 
roger...i know joe szilaski has some fixed blades like that....i would assume they are laser cut for him and he does the final finishing.....i'm not 100 percent though......ryan
 
I am glad to see this topic being discussed. I have a great interest in the views of both customers and other makers.

For the past the 25 or so years I have been making knives, I have done all the work myself. The exception being of some engraving, scrimshaw, a few with Damascus from other makers and of course those wonderful sheaths that Karen makes.

Recently this changed with a special project I took on. As many of you know I am making a Breaching Axe for the US Navy Special Development Group. In order to be able to outfit the entire Team in a reasonable amount of time at an affordable price I contracted out a few operations. I have the profile of these axes water jet cut and some milling done on the handles and the head. To designate these as "mid-tech" I use a special touch mark, WINKLER II rather than my usual DW or DWinkler. This is a very limited and specialized project but I am considering expanding this line with other knives and axes not for the military.

Orvis has requested I produce a less expensive knife to go in their catalog along with my Limited Edition pieces. This would be accomplished by using out sourced operations like this Axe project. Personally I think this is a positive move and will help to broaden the potential customer base.

The next step after these two projects would to be to add some mid-tech designs to offer my own customers. I am not sure if this move would help or hurt my overall long-term business and how it would affect the values of the knives I have sold in the past. Taking care of customers is so important in this business I wouldn't want to do anything that hurt the future of my work.

I look forward to more discussion on this topic.

Daniel

Here is a picture of the Navy Axe: S-7 steel, full tang, 13" overall length
Seal-axe-1.jpg
 
I have also mostly moved past both production and midtech knives, but have to agree that it can be a very good thing. The only thing that I would say is similar to Coop's concern and that is that the important work be done by hand by the maker. Grunt work is find to farm out, and where to draw the line may be blurry, but for me, I want the blade hand-ground by the maker. And the final fit and finish done by the maker. Doing more work with outsourcing is fine, but it comes closer to a production piece with a few touches by the maker (which I really don't distinguish from a full production knife).
Nick
 
Another important aspect of this isn't just full disclosure, but being sure the customer is informed about the terminology. The type of customer this would most appeal to may not even know what midtech means. So, they are told it's a midtech, but when they show what they have or try to sell it, they don't understand how it differs from the custom version.
Nick
 
For the sake of the maker's reputation, there needs to be more than full disclosure but also a different brand. What Daniel is talking about is a good example, but I would go even further, something like "Winkler benchmade" - i.e., the addition of a term that makes it clear that it is not a full custom (after all, makers use different marks over the years).
 
I would fall into the market for this type of semi-custom/production. I buy both production knives and custom knives, and tend to keep my custom spending to the general JS level prices. If the designs and final fit & finish of some of the makers that have been in my wants but out of my reach can be made available to me in my price range, I have no problems with the grunt work having been done by someone/something else.

I'm even interested in the limited edition factory collaborations, like the Camillus OVB Fisks and Browning Mastersmith series, so the "mid-tech" would just be another step closer to a true custom.
 
When I go full time in Nov., I plan to have certain models profiles waterjet cut. I'll still do all the grinding and HTing in house. I think if the maker is upfront with his process, I see no problem going this route. It will help speed up production and shorten some waiting periods.
Scott
 
RogerP said:
My interest is in custom knives. Apart from collaboration pieces, I really would have no interest in a knife ground by someone other than the maker - much less by a machine. Not saying it's a bad thing (assuming disclosure), just saying it's not my thing.

Roger
Click to expand...

Same here, even though I can see the advantages for the the general knife market.
 
IMO, when you are buying a knife from a maker, you are buying his time and labor, and hopefully his skill. Not someone else's.

Waterjet profiling (oversize) of blade blanks and subcontracting of turned parts (made to my drawings and specifications) are the only things I'm willing to outsource.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top