Semi-production/semi-custom

SharpByCoop said:
Comparing to a WH folder? I don't think so. Who can dispute the wonderful quality of those knives. But, who knows the name of the craftsman who finished yours, and was it the same person who finished mine? It's a highly specialized factory. Matt Conable more than likely didn't finish grinding, lockup fitment and assembly.

In the case of the individual maker, I would *hope* for their final hand work to completion.

Coop
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Architect said:
Just to answer your questions Coop - at WH Knives the frames and scales are jobbed to a factory in Japan. Kiku Matsuda (Japan) does all the blade grinding. Local guys (McMinville) assemble (there are 5 or 6 guys in the shop). Matt Conable does the final inspection and final sharpening. I don't know where the heat treating is done. I met Kiku at Blade West and although the guy doesn't speak a lick of English and I don't speak a lick of Japanese, I really did appreciate the artful treatment of the very aggressive blades he makes himself.

If I had my druthers, I would elminate the fine points and call anything that wasnt' the work of one person "benchmade" and leave it at that.

This includes anything other that blanking. I think at this point we can all agree (can't we?) that whether a piece of steel (stock removeal) is blanked by a hacksaw or a laser is irrelevant. When the primary (and secondary) bevels are done by CNC it becomes a lot blurrier to me as to where to draw the line. I'd just as soon see the "jobbing" done by another person as by a machine. If the CNC is doing work that can't actually be done by a person (like RJ's radiant bevels) then the CNC seems like a tool rather than a staff replacement.
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Interesting this subject and post came up today as it seems that Matt Conable is offering custom Matt Conable folders through William Henry.

They are listed for sale in William Henry's just out September's Quarterly "Collectors Only" offerings (very bottom of link page).

http://www.williamhenrystudio.com/collectors-only/collector-enter.html

Begs another question though, how do you feel about makers utilizing other's damascus (Norris, Eggerling etc.), such as folder makers do so often?
 
actually, this trend has being going on for quite a while, but most of the people I know that are doing it are making their own parts on their own CNC in their own shop!:p
 
Kevin Jones said:
Interesting this subject and post came up today as it seems that Matt Conable is offering custom Matt Conable folders through William Henry.
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from WH Collectors Page on website said:
Designer and co-founder Matt Conable personally selects extraordinary combinations of these superlative components for a special run of the highest caliber knives.
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I don't want to get into a bashing of WH products whatsoever. I think they are great and the combos are incredibly well matched. Matt does a superb job in his 'selection' and sourcing his craftsman. That said, this was the only reference that I could find which would declare Matt's involvement in the series.

It's still really a William Henry knife, not a Matt Conable-Custom Knifemaker knife. Yes, I would call it a great semi-production knife. In fact it is, arguably, the very BEST semi-production in existence.

Coop
 
kevin....i am not crazy about people using other's damascus.....actually i really can't stand it and would never buy a knife in damascus not made by the maker....as for mid tech knives...i don't have a problem with makers outsourcing parts and having blanks cut out...as long as they do the assembly and finishing...i think it is a great chance to have a well finished knife and opens up a chance for someone to have a master's knife without the master's pricetag....ryan
 
I think it is all good, as long as efforts are made to educate the customer. *With the caveat that I recognize that slippery slope - it is the consumer's job to educate themselves.* Still yet, no deception tolerated on the part of the maker.

I'm happy to see custom makers design blades for full scale manufacturers- it breaks the mundane cycle of production blades and gets great designs into the hands of the consumer. (Kershaw, Benchmade, Spyderco... even CRKT has a place for me with the new Krein Dogfish.)

I'm happy to see small scale production in the house of a custom maker - the manufacture process is overseen by the vision of a bladesmith - not a CEO - and great blades are often the result. (Bark River, Busse and, say, Randall.)

Mid-tech and full-on custom - their merits are already represented better by previous posters.

I just hope to see full custom remain an option for the design and expression of the maker.
 
ryan9977 said:
kevin....i am not crazy about people using other's damascus.....actually i really can't stand it and would never buy a knife in damascus not made by the maker....as for mid tech knives...i don't have a problem with makers outsourcing parts and having blanks cut out...as long as they do the assembly and finishing...i think it is a great chance to have a well finished knife and opens up a chance for someone to have a master's knife without the master's pricetag....ryan
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How do you feel about customs makers having blade blanks cut out without disclosure?
 
ryan9977 said:
kevin....i am not crazy about people using other's damascus.....actually i really can't stand it and would never buy a knife in damascus not made by the maker...ryan
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I have 3 knives that are made by well known makers that utilize other maker's damascus.(These maker's do not forge they're own damascus)
With 2 of the knives I was able to obtain a damascus blade from a maker that would have otherwise been almost impossible to obtain or afford .
For me its analogous to having a knife engraved by some one other than the maker or having a custom sheath made .
Or what about a collaboration between a blade smith and one of the better sheath makers?
Regards, Paul
 
kevin-i don't know....i mean when you buy a fisk or foster or whoever's knife you are buying a hand forged knife made by a mastersmith.....i think a blank is obviously different but my point is sometimes i think you can't be sure of what you are getting.....if someone is forging their blades 80 percent to shape and grinding the restand someone else is forging their blades to 95 percent....and both are beautiful knives.....are they equal.....as far as not being disclosed about the blanks.....i think i would feel a little lied to.....i do think though that if you are used to buying knives and have a little experience....you could probably assume some things...for instance...the mid-tech knives joe szilaski produces....i would assume those blades are cut by someone and possibly heat treated in batches.....and he attached the handles and did the final fit and finish and sharpening.....if he did the heat treating and other steps i would think that's a bonus.....i wanted to add something about the damascus used by folder makers.....i know alot of folder makers might not have the skill or equipment to make damascus.....however i think alot of them have to use it to produce something people want to buy....so they probably can't afford NOT to use it.....hope my post makes sense....ryan
 
bgspecialk said:
I have 3 knives that are made by well known makers that utilize other maker's damascus.(These maker's do not forge they're own damascus)
With 2 of the knives I was able to obtain a damascus blade from a maker that would have otherwise been almost impossible to obtain or afford .
For me its analogous to having a knife engraved by some one other than the maker or having a custom sheath made .
Or what about a collaboration between a blade smith and one of the better sheath makers?
Regards, Paul
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very good point....i can see why makers use other's damascus or leather makers....i always like to have knives that are sole-authorship.....i think if you can't engrave well...you SHOULD call a good engraver....it will help your knife....i just won't be buying it.....ryan
 
Kevin,
I think that's an interesting question about a maker using another's damascus. For stock removal makers I see it as buying another raw material. I understand that another's work went into making it, but the stock removal guy didn't make the bar stock for the S30V they are using and I have no issue with that.
For guys who forge, I feel (perhaps unfairly) that the maker should make their own (unless doing a collaboration piece). I suppose for me, the double standard comes about because of the potential confusion (if Mr. Hanson III has a knife out with fabulous damascus, would anyone even think twice about who made). That and if the maker CAN make their own stuff, they should.
I suppose it comes back to full disclosure. As long as the buyer knows what they are getting and still want that, there is a place for just about any mix and match of production/farming out and handmade.
Personally, there are some skills that I admire and want the maker to complete and there are some I won't fault for farming out (like if they don't make their own screws or washers or carbon fiber). Everyone has to make the choice about whether they care that their knife is fully handmade (or sole authorship) or to what extent it is and how much they care.
As long as the customer is given the proper information to make that choice and the confusion in the market is kept to a minimum, I think it can be a very good thing to have choices at about every point in the spectrum.
Nick
 
I always prefer and believe knives benefit more when engraved by the maker. However believe it appropriate and that pieces have benefited by collaborations by engraver/maker partners such as Bob Loveless/the late Dan Wilkerson, D Alton Holder/Bruce Shaw, Edmond and Jere Davidson, Harvey Dean and Steve Dunn or Terry Theiss, and the late Buster Warrenski and Julie Warrenski.
It doesn't particularly interest me when makers and engravers who have never worked together team up for an isolated or random project.

For some reason I only want damascus to be by the maker on fixed-blades, however it doesn't concern me as much with folders.
Perhaps because its seems more acceptable or common for folder makers to use Thomas and/or Eggerling damascus than for fixed-blade makers to do the same.
 
I'll cast another vote for complete disclosure. I see semi-production/semi-custom knives as a very positive opportunity for buyers who want to use them.

Costs are reduced and quality/personal touch retained to whatever degree the maker chooses. I do hope that makers share my belief that they put their reputation on the line with every knife produced in their name, even to a lesser degree with factory collaborations.

I understand the concern that such knives could be a slippery slope for collectors, but I don't really think very many makers would take a chance on damaging the market for the custom knives that earned them their reputation/livelihood.

Anyone who can produce a knife of William Henry quality for a sensible price and says flat out who did what gets my appreciation.

DD
 
I have no problem with makers getting pattern welded steel form an outside source. It is no different to me that purchasing any other blade steel. Very few makers make their own steel.

What do you guys think about outsourcing heat treatment? I prefer when the maker does it himself, but heat treating is something that I have never considered to be something that had to be done in house.

To me, it is not important that the knifemaker is also the sheathmaker.

Once again, as long as there is full disclosure, I have no problem with makers producing knives in any way they want. Just so long as I have that information in front of me.
 
Keith Montgomery said:
I have no problem with makers getting pattern welded steel form an outside source. It is no different to me that purchasing any other blade steel. Very few makers make their own steel.

What do you guys think about outsourcing heat treatment? I prefer when the maker does it himself, but heat treating is something that I have never considered to be something that had to be done in house.

To me, it is not important that the knifemaker is also the sheathmaker.

Once again, as long as there is full disclosure, I have no problem with makers producing knives in any way they want. Just so long as I have that information in front of me.
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Steel and heat treat for my forged knives has to be by the maker, or I will not buy.
Now as for sheaths, that's totally different as that's not part of the knife.
For Hancock's, Winkler's, Fuegen's, Foster's, Burrow's (some makers I consider TOP sheathmakers) give me the sheath. Otherwise I call Paul Long.
 
In my case I use factory made damasteel because it is pretty but don't hide the fact that it is damasteel as is the case for my Stellite from Deloro Stellite and my 440C.

In fact it would be pretty difficult to hide anything given that my shop is open for shop tours anytime and visitors can see the process from raw bar stock to finished knife.

For the high tech part, heat treating I use and aerospace heat treater who is located about 5 blocks away and has millions of dollars tied up in vacuum heat treating ovens, cryogenic freezers and the whole kit. They heat treat 24/7 and are very good at it, NASA, Pratt and Whitney are some of thier customers.

It still comes down to the fact that tiny stainless steel torx screws cannot be manufactured in house so some things must be purchased.

The arguement then is WHAT IS CUSTOM?

Some people would argue that nothing is custom because all blade shapes and handle designs have been used before somewhere and are just mixed and matched.

Others will accept that like the custom car industry you take a base model like a 56 Chevy and go to town and end up with a custom car. The same applies to knives, base model dressed up and tweeked to suit the customer.

Still others will accept that simply sole authorship denotes a custom.

The last arguement would suggest that only a bladesmith can produce a custom blade because it is heated and pounded to shape then heat teated in the same furnace.
 
With all the talk about makers using Damascus I thought I would explain my earlier statement that I had used Damascus from other makers.

Early in my career, before I learned how to make my own I traded for Damascus from Steve Schwarzer. A few years ago a customer asked me to make a set out of some Damascus he had bought from Daryl Meier. This was beautiful steel and I was proud to make his set. In the near future I will be working on a folder collaboration with another maker. He wants a couple of these knives made with stainless Damascus because he lives in Hawaii and worries about rusting. I don't make stainless Damascus so I discussed the pattern with Mike Norris and he made the steel.

I worked with the Knifemakers Guild committee when they were trying to decide what was acceptable when describing a "custom knife". At the time these were the rulings:

-Damascus is a raw material.
-Parts that are made for other applications such as screws, pins, bushings, etc. are also viewed as raw materials.
-Contracted heat-treating is traditional and is acceptable.

-Contracted parts such as laser cutting and blade grinding are not acceptable at the Knifemakers Guild Show. If the maker operates the equipment himself it is acceptable.(many makers own and operate their own CNC equipment)
-Hired help doing knife operations in their shop is not acceptable for knives shown at the Knifemakers Guild Show.


Daniel
 
I don't think that anyone considers the outsourcing of screws and such as something that would disqualify a knife from being a custom.

This isn't a rehash of the argument about what to call a knife, custom, handmade or benchmade.

As far as I am concerned, a knife that is only assembled by the maker is basically a production/kit knife.
 
This is a very touchy subject in some circles, but full disclosure and grinding your own blades should be a serious consideration.
 
In regard to a custom knife being completely done by the maker--doesn't Randall Knives use a shop of knifesmiths? I could be wrong on that, but in that case, you are depending on the maker's reputation and his QC.
 
Kevin Jones
...Steel and heat treat for my forged knives has to be by the maker, or I will not buy.
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I don't mean to offend and I'm underqualified to say too much here, but I don't see using blanks or using outside heat treating as at all consistent with calling a knife hand forged. Does the ABS have anything guidelines on this? It's not completely relevant, but I have a vision of someone taking a blank to an ABS test:(

For stock removal knives, I don't see blanks as a big issue and actually prefer a heat treatment by a top notch specialist, unless I'm convinced the maker can do as well.

Dave
 
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