Semi-production/semi-custom

Hi Ryan

How do you feel about MS makers using a Hydraulic Press to put the pattern in their Damascus?

As for engraving, for most knives who use someone who is specifically known for his or her engraving. Will add significantly to the knife.

The exception in the ABS is Steve Dunn.

WWG
 
DWinkler said:
-Hired help doing knife operations in their shop is not acceptable for knives shown at the Knifemakers Guild Show.
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How is "hired help" defined? I assume that partnerships a la Merritt / Loveless is OK (although I don't know the details of their agreement, I assume they have a full fledge partnership, with Mr. Merritt having some equity in the Loveless brand).
 
I don't consider a hydraulic press or air hammer to be any different than a belt or disk grinder, milling machine or drill press. They are all just tools that require that the maker hold the material in position for the tool to do it's job. That is completely different than outsourcing, or CNC for that matter.
 
Gee, these two things:

- Contracted parts such as laser cutting and blade grinding are not acceptable at the Knifemakers Guild Show. If the maker operates the equipment himself it is acceptable.(many makers own and operate their own CNC equipment)
- Hired help doing knife operations in their shop is not acceptable for knives shown at the Knifemakers Guild Show.

Could be the reason there are less knifemakers at the Guild shows than in past years. Maybe there are too many knifemakers who have hired help and blank out their blades. Some of the darling "Custom Makers" of this forum would fail these two tests.
 
I'm not trying to get a discussion started on what constitutes a custom knife. This is a major topic with as many definitions as there are people that have an interest in custom knives.

The statements I made were not my opinions, only what I know to have been decided by the committee to define the Knifemakers Guild Show rules as to what is acceptable. These definitions were based on surveys sent to voting members not the opinions of the committee members.

Personally I think all types of construction should be accepted along with full disclosure by each maker.

As far as shop help, to be acceptable for the Knifemakers Guild Show, knives displayed for sale are to be made by a voting member, probationary member, new applicant or a past member of the Guild that left in good standing. Not outside sources or shop help. Shop help was defined as operations made to the knives being made. Not maintenance or clerical.

This is only for knives displayed at the Knifemakers Guild Show. Not knives offered for sale by Knifemakers Guild Members. Makers are free to make knives by any method they want to as long as they are honest about methods used.

In my opinion these rules have hurt the strength of the Guild but they were based on the views of the majority of voting Guild members.
 
DWinkler said:
The statements I made were not my opinions, only what I know to have been decided by the committee to define the Knifemakers Guild Show rules as to what is acceptable. These definitions were based on surveys sent to voting members not the opinions of the committee members.
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Daniel,

You have a lot of class, contribute to the Community consistently and your work is revered in many circles.

No one even knows who Brownshoe is........what does that say to you?

It says to me, that what he or she has to say is not very important. There is a vast difference between having an online handle, and perpetuating anonymity. Respect flowing in 2 directions becomes that much more important in cyberspace. Brownshoe has shown continual lack of respect from that side.

As far as custom/semi-custom.....those of you that disdain CNC have probably not seen it programmed and run. It is not a knifemaking machine. It does help cut down on some of the problematic issues like radius cuts.

Frankly, it is my very sincere belief that MOST knifemakers are better served by having their high alloy stainless steels heat treated by someone like Paul Bos, who is an expert, and produces repeatably consistent results, 99.99% of the time.

It is not even a question with the likes of Fuegen, Foster, Fogg......of course they are doing their own heat treat....this is a crucial element of what they do.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Hi Keith,

So you consider knife makers who outsource their heat treating "inferior" makers?

Dan pointed out that the Guild says no "outside" help. But what about heat treating. Most of the Powers that Be had no problem with that....because they use Paul or someone else to do their heat treating.

Oh, you do know the Guild says its ok to use a CNC if it is in your shop.

So if a maker owns the CNC its ok, but if he outsources to some one to do the CNC work it is bad. Even though the end result will be the same?

You think they would have one set of rules for everyone???

WWG
 
I worked with the Knifemakers Guild committee when they were trying to decide what was acceptable when describing a "custom knife". At the time these were the rulings:

-Damascus is a raw material.
-Parts that are made for other applications such as screws, pins, bushings, etc. are also viewed as raw materials.
-Contracted heat-treating is traditional and is acceptable.
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WWG,

Please re-read just for clarification about the Guilds views on heat-treating.

Daniel
 
WoodWorkGhost said:
Hi Keith,

So you consider knife makers who outsource their heat treating "inferior" makers?

Dan pointed out that the Guild says no "outside" help. But what about heat treating. Most of the Powers that Be had no problem with that....because they use Paul or someone else to do their heat treating.

Oh, you do know the Guild says its ok to use a CNC if it is in your shop.

So if a maker owns the CNC its ok, but if he outsources to some one to do the CNC work it is bad. Even though the end result will be the same?

You think they would have one set of rules for everyone???

WWG
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The Guild is promoting a business model rather than a performance model, which doesn't seem to me what they should be doing, but makes some sense.

As "custom" makers design more "factory" knives, one more element that separates the "factories" from "custom" makers disappears. It used to be steel, it used to be unique materials. If Buck Knives and D'Holder both use Paul Bos for heat treat...well not much difference there. There is generally still a gap in fit and finish, but William Henry and Chris Reeve have closed (and surpassed) that gap.

At this point, I see two real differentiators - the business model (one person shop - the romantic image) and the ability to deliver new designs faster, since "factories" need to do a lot of set-up to pump out new models and they are by necessity slower.

So, whether you CNC in-shop or out of shop matters in the sense that the Guild is promoting a particular business model.
 
Hi Daniel,

I know the Guild says its ok to "Outsource" your heat treat. Why is that different than outsourcing you blades to be laser cut?

Personally I think the heat treat is much more important to the finished product than who, what or where your blades are cut.

Consequently, the makers should learn how to heat treat their own blades.

Point is, level the playing field and have the same rules for everything. If one type of outsourcing is ok, then other types should be ok.

For the record, I understand completely why knife makers would want to use heat treaters like Paul Bos.

As well, Im just playing Devil's advocate. The Guild has seen the error of its ways.


WWG
 
I have no problem with outsourcing the cutting of blade blanks, as long as all the grinding is done by the maker. Just so long as the maker lets potential customers know that he is getting blades cut by someone else.
 
Hi Keith,

You know there was a time that Milling Machines, Lathes, Drill presses didn't exist and all that had to be done with files.

So those makers using those machines are no different than those using a CNC.

They have just learned how to use the next level of machines.

Im sure if it were back in the early 1900's we would have a discussion on how those machines with an electric plug coming out of the back are giving the makers who use those an unfair advantage.

As you can tell Im not an old timey antique kind of guy.

WWG
 
WoodWorkGhost said:
Hi Ryan

How do you feel about MS makers using a Hydraulic Press to put the pattern in their Damascus?

As for engraving, for most knives who use someone who is specifically known for his or her engraving. Will add significantly to the knife.

The exception in the ABS is Steve Dunn.

WWG
Click to expand...

Just to clarify WWG, are you stating that Steve Dunn's engraving does not add significantly to another maker's knife? And if so, does not add from a monetary or aesthetic standpoint or neither?
Or I may have missed your point.
 
As far as those machines being tools, and a CNC being a tool, I agree with you, but a person with very limited knifemaking skills could produce a knife with the help of CNC, Auto CAD and Steel CAM. With todays advanced technology, you don't even have to be that good a computer programmer to be able to design on Auto CAD.

I can design a complete house full of granite countertops on Auto Can in a couple of hours, transfer the drawings to Stone CAM, and fabricate the countertops without having the slightest ability to make those countertops by hand.

With knives there will be some degree of final finishing that is required. That degree of finishing will correspond with the amount of work the CNC machine is capable of doing. There are CNC machines that could do all the work, including grinding, even the edge. The only thing that the maker would have to do is assemble the knife. Most makers leave a lot of hand finishing for themselves to do, but with the right CNC machine that would not be a requirement.

Is there anything wrong with making a knife that way? No, but I would want to know, so that I could decide if I wanted a knife made that way.
 
Joss said:
How is "hired help" defined? I assume that partnerships a la Merritt / Loveless is OK (although I don't know the details of their agreement, I assume they have a full fledge partnership, with Mr. Merritt having some equity in the Loveless brand).
Click to expand...

Here's something related to your post and interesting. Or at least something I haven't seen before a double Loveless/Merritt logo?

Courtesy of IQ Knives website: http://www.iqknives.com/
loveless_drop.jpg
 
wwg-i don't have a problem with makers using a power hammer for damascus or other procedures......let me explain my htoughts....i don't have any problem with makers using technology to produce high quality blades......if people want to send their blades out for heat treatment.....at least sendthem to bos or someone who can do a great job......i'm sure some of these heat treaters have equipment valuing more than some people see in their lifetimes........i would hope that most makers have the desire to learn how to heat treat though and eventually do it themselves.......as far as other machinery and outsourcing .....i know it is commonplace....what i am trying to say i guess is i appreciate the knife more when it is done by the maker entirely......i think regardless of if you are using a grinder you should go that extra step and forge the knife as close to shape as you can.....hope that makes sense.......ryan
 
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