Setting up shop, may need advice on a few things

Pali Fisher

Pali Fisher

Joined
May 31, 2020
Messages
87
Greetings Bladesmiths

I'm brand new to the forum, and "newish" to this world.
Short about me: Im early retired, and have for a long time wanted to get back to this.
I started making a few blades, after a mate on YouTube was in some make a knife from scratch build along. And well they stock removed I guess it's called, not what I was expecting and just happend to be I had an arnvil at my old place.
Anyway after a split up, and I was left with what I could fit in my RV Trailer.

Now I am setting up shop at my new house, I got a early retirement pension last year.
The budget isn't great, but im greatfull for everything I have and Rome wasn't build in one day. I got lot's of time tho!

Now to my question, as I have zero experiance with MIG welding.
How big a MIG welder do I need, to close canisters for damascus and such work?

As my budget is what I save up, and I don't wanna cut corners and end up needing to buy a larger unit. I also don't wanna spend more, then what I have too. I just resently found out what a propper belt grinder will end up costing.

The unit I am looking at got following specs.

MIG 140
  • Current: 230 V
  • Effect: 5,7 kW
  • Fuse:: 16 A
  • Effect factor cos φ:: 0,73
  • Idle current: Max 37 V
  • Welding thread: Max 0,8/0,9 mm
I know just about nothing, what that mean's in terms of welding.
Im hoping for something, that don't require more then a 16A fuse for practical reasons.
It's a fairly cheap model I guess at 230 us$

I do have 400 Volt as well in the garage, but running on a 16A breaker.

Thank you for your time and any advice given.

Pali
 
I would think that will do the job nicely. I spent years stick welding and never used mig until I finally ordered this one: https://www.ebay.com/itm/202932531516? a couple months ago. It's listed as only 120vac input, and I think ya'll have only 230 vac? Your specs sound similar to the one I linked to. It will weld 1/4" (6mm) steel just fine. That's thicker than you'll need for canister.

I wasn't interested in the TIG or arc options because I didn't wish to spend the extra money for the gas stuff, and have a stick welder. All I wanted was the flux core wire welder. So far, I've been very happy with flux core wire welding.
 
Thank you Ken H

That sounds great, I think that settles my choice for that unit.

Next mission: Save up for a good belt sander!
 
As far as what you need for closing canisters and tack welding billets, literally any MIG welder will do the job. I've been using the 120v household outlet MIG welder from Harbor Freight, got it for $100, works just fine (but my billet handles do tend to fall off after a couple of heats).
 
I'm not sure what you are looking to spend, or how much space you have, but Miller makes a pretty awesome 120v suitcase model, that does a dang good job.
 
A.McPherson said:
I'm not sure what you are looking to spend, or how much space you have, but Miller makes a pretty awesome 120v suitcase model, that does a dang good job.
Click to expand...

Enough needed to do what I need it to do, and if the 230$ will do that I am okay with the fact.
It's not build to run 10 hour shifts, as the more pro units that cost a bunch more.

On the other hand, I will rather spend 400$ on something that will do the job I need it too.
Close canisters, add handles to my billets and so on. As it will be cheaper, to get the right one first.

About the 120V units, I'm based in Scandinavia. Here we are running 230V household and 400V for larger industrial instalations.
I will see if Miller is sold around here!

@Leon Husock I'd prolly prefer the handle, sticking to the billet untill I want it removed. But I get what your getting at, and even with the best welder out there.
I will prolly drop a bunch of hot billets, till I learn to weld it right. The right tool, is half the work!
 
Changed the title, rather then just posting a new thread.

I have been buying supplies for a while, and apparently there is no local suppliers for metal powders.
Unless I wanna order industrial amounts, they don't wanna deal with stocking it.

So in my hunt for suppliers, I was told the atomization have inpact on the ability to weld or something.
Im not sure if this even matters, for canister damascus or not.
They never delt with canisters, so they had no idea if their powders would work.
I was recomended to find a supplier who made "non spherical" powders, but I haven't been able to find any referrence to this from any one making canisters.
Also not been able to find anyone selling that stuff, so im wondering if I misunderstood or something got lost in translation.

Does it matter, if the steel powder is spherical ?

And what micron size is recommended?
 
Guess grain size on the steel powder, don't matter that much.

Well update on my shop build, it's been slow as I have been busy with other projects.
It's been a milion degrees hot this summer, so took the boat out a lot .... bla bla bla time passes.

Still haven't got my welder, been looking for good deals and trying my luck on a few auctions.
Anyway, got a drill press and a small benchgrinder. Still need to find a larger one for polishing, but im sure I will find one in right time.
Not in a hurry to set this up, just to change it all up cos I didn't take my time the first place.

So steel haven't been the easiest task to source, well I can find plenty of good steel localy. At a fair price, if I buy metric ton's.
As soon I look for billets, small amounts in some form. The price is just rockets up, and compared to when I look at US knifesupply shops the price is just low enough.
That with shipping and import taxes, it will not be cheaper to buy American steel.
I might not found the best deals, gonne have to look some more. For now I will try my luck with China84 (1084 made in China) and some 15N20 steel I feel I payed waay too much for.

Yes I am aware everyone say's china steel is crap, and it's prolly not as great. But been trying to ask around, to find out who makes the best steel. And came up with, it all depends on who I asked. Only thing they all agreed on, was china steel was s**t. So I went on and ordered some china steel :)
But for knife making, there sure it much much more and easy access info, on the american steels.

I was from the start fairly confident that this will include some risk of total failure, I'd might get some odd alloy that is nothing like what I orderd.
With this in mind I started looking for a supplyer, and that turned out to be alot of "rejections". As the chinese are super polite, they don't wanna say no and turn you down.
On the other hands, I was not looking to buy ton's of steel. But a "sample" around 25 lbs, and it took me some time to find dealers who where willing to deal in that small amounts and had the right alloys.
Finaly I found one, that had 1084 and was okay with the small amount.

The second I mentioned I was gonna make knifes, she showed me pictures of billets they already made for another customer. Bingo!
Now I had to ask if they could sell me some 15N20 as well, but to my surprice that was not an option.
From that I concluded that they where not just gonna sell me something, labled as something else and went on with ordering the 1084.

There's still a chance it's no good, that it got odd inclusions and what other issues I have read about it.
But I think for learning, it's not gonna be a total waste. Either way, I will be all honest about it.
Im gonna record it all, so everyone can either laugh or cheere with me at that point.

Still working out how to post pictures here, is there an on-site gallery or do I need another picture host?

Cheers y'all
 
Another few days and it should be here
1084-steel.jpg
 
Some steel have arrived and I got the forge up and running!

Had a issue with the high pressure valve, but the guys at Devil Forge sorted me out and had a new replacement shipped out the same day.
Today is gonna be the first test of many many hours spend infront of the screen, telling myself "You can do this .. easyehhh" okay let's be real for a moment.

I feel I have read and watched so many tutorials, that by now I can't learn much more without practice and failure.
Maybe I should start somewhere else, not with making damascus but that was what caught my interest.

Also I ordered the 440C steel powder, before I realised that forging with stainless steel might not be the best beginner option.
Combined with ball bearings, it will most likely make a pretty hard billet.
This will be fun, forging by hand - Wish me luck!

 
You will do it :) Just make sure there are no welding gaps , right temperature and don t use to much force for initial weld .After that hit the hammer :D
 
Thanks Natlek, the welds held up fine I guess.

Canister cracked in the middle tho


I didn't notic untill I saw something odd n liquidy in the bottom of my forge.

My guess is I got it hot enough


Looks like the 440C powder, maybe melted and some ran out the crack.
Not sure, I know next to nothing about metallurgi.

Im gonna try an weld it up and hammer on it some more!
 
On closer inspection, I am not sure if it would be better to cut the 1/3rd off at the crack and reweld a new cap on.

What would you guys do?
 
I would suggest you learn a lot more before proceeding any further.

You aren't likely to have any success filling a can with 440C powder and ball bearings and hand forging it .
440C melts a around 2700F and won't flow until probably 2800F. That isn't likely melted metal. Maybe it is melted refractory or flux? Did you coat the wool with satanite yet? If not, that is melted mineral glass.
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
I would suggest you learn a lot more before proceeding any further.

You aren't likely to have any success filling a can with 440C powder and ball bearings and hand forging it .
440C melts a around 2700F and won't flow until probably 2800F. That isn't likely melted metal. Maybe it is melted refractory or flux? Did you coat the wool with satanite yet? If not, that is melted mineral glass.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your reply

Yes the forge have been coated with refactory cement a few weeks ago, then did a short test burn yesterday.

Haven't taken any pic's of the cementing, as I figured everyone have seen that a hundred times before.

What ever melted into the firebrick, seems to have come from the canister.
There is a small "squirt" on the side wall where the refactory cement, have been hit and it have melted/burnt a hole.
No flow pattern from that, to the large puddle on the firebrick.

I didn't add any flux, only ball bearings and the powder.

Had a brick blocking the back hole in the forge, not sure if that was a good idea or not.
IMG-20200922-135508.jpg


So it's been a great first day, I didn't break my hammer, the RR track or loost any fingers!

Anyone else on how to proceed with the canister?
 
Cut the canister at the crack, to inspect the failure up closer.


A normalization cycle or two to fix the grain size :D

Out of curiosity, I am gonna continue on the remaining canister.
So I have given it another canister, to give me a fair chance to keep working on it.
Just welded an "outer jacket" outside on the ramaining billet, after giving it a light touch up with an angle grinder.



Forged in Failure will continue tomorrow!
 
Today - less heat time then last try (apparently - just give it 15 min more, once u think it's hot enough. isn't really good or useable advice)

Still wondering what happend in the first try



I should prolly try and find some more refactory cement, and fix that burnt spot on the insulation.

Gave the canister a few good run's, didn' crack right away like the first time.
After a few passes, 4-5 turns the outerjacket was pretty loose and started to crack.
Nothing have been flowing/oozing out anywhere, so major progress I think.
 
Minor setback heheheehe



All right well here at Forged in Failure, this was expected.
I guess now is the time to open it up, inspect the failure and move on to making a handle o_O

Okay no handle yet, well it's been fun and I guess it's time to move on to something else.
The ball bearings where the first scrap metal I got, and the 440C powder from china was maybe more an impulse buy.

Anyway from what I have been reading, 1084 should be a good steel to start out with. I have been recommended to learn with known steel, over scrap steel as there is too many unknowns.
Makes a lot of sence to me, as I will have better idea about hardening and tempering a known steel.

The China84 arrived some time ago, and I got a bit of 15N20 steel as well.


Now im pondering on; What's next in Forged in Failure.

Maybe a canister, with 1084 bars and 440C powder, as I still got some left and I might as well see if it will work.
 
Pali Fisher said:
Minor setback heheheehe



All right well here at Forged in Failure, this was expected.
I guess now is the time to open it up, inspect the failure and move on to making a handle o_O

Okay no handle yet, well it's been fun and I guess it's time to move on to something else.
The ball bearings where the first scrap metal I got, and the 440C powder from china was maybe more an impulse buy.

Anyway from what I have been reading, 1084 should be a good steel to start out with. I have been recommended to learn with known steel, over scrap steel as there is too many unknowns.
Makes a lot of sence to me, as I will have better idea about hardening and tempering a known steel.

The China84 arrived some time ago, and I got a bit of 15N20 steel as well.


Now im pondering on; What's next in Forged in Failure.

Maybe a canister, with 1084 bars and 440C powder, as I still got some left and I might as well see if it will work.
Click to expand...
Obviously you have fun :) You are Scandinavian , Viking make some excellent steel long time ago :p So go and do it right !
 
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