Share your thoughts on proxy buying please.

[JustinFournier]

Thank you to everyone for the extremely constructive and positive thread. I am glad to see it. Really I am.

Seems like many of us are on the same page here.

I just wrapped up a 17 hour day, and I don't have more than about 6 hours before I need to leave for work again, so I can't take the time to reply to everyone like you all deserve.

This has given me lots to think about, and when I make it home tomorrow I will get some replies out. Don't think I am ignoring this thread!

If anyone is reading, and hesitating to post, please don't wait. Post up. The more opinions the more constructive this will be.

Thanks again everyone and I look forward to more input.

 

[Casinostocks]

Why doesn't Luke contact Justin and have him get one for him? Unless he just likes the thrill of getting it himself.

I can't speak for Luke as I don't know anything about him and I do not want to speak for Justin, although I know him and of him a lot more than others!

That said, I get a feeling that Justin will not be readily available for some of the upcoming Friday sales when his lull Summer period away from work, when he helped many tremendously by proxying to acquire a CPK, looks to be changing (read his post above this).

 

[Gusbuster]

I guess I'm glad I got a LC, a Field knife, and a EDC. I'm not really looking to become a CPK collector. I might try for one of those fancy handles or a SK just for the hell of it, even though my computer sucks, and I need another knife like I need a hole in my head! [emoji12]


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[J_mcrane]

I'm on the fence.

As a potential new customer, I'm looking for a new edc. I've narrowed my search to one of 3 choices with the new edc as a front runner.

I work in education so Fridays don't work for me. (A bit hypocritical for me to be on my phone).

And I'm not the type to tell someone how to run their business. Many folks do Friday sales; what ever works.

I'm not against proxy, it might be the only way I get an Edc.

But it would be nice to have n actual shot at one but the list is more conducive for me.

I'm trying to decide to wait and maybe have a chance at one or buy a different knife sooner that I like less but know I can get. And I'm probably not the only one in that spot.

That's were you loose folks.


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[JustinFournier]

The regular sales are at 4AM Saturday morning for me and my internet is via a highly unreliable mobile broadband connection. Never going to work unless I go visit someone with a better connection at 4AM on a Saturday.

If you hadn’t offered to proxy for me, I wouldn’t have a Light Chopper. But you did and I do, so Yay me. Thanks a lot.

There you go. My thoughts, for what they are worth.

Reading back through the sales, I could see you had been buying since the D2 skinner days, and when we spoke, it was clear you were a massive fan. You are exactly the type of person I wanted to help. Someone who has been following Nathan for years, purchased knives when it was practical to do so, but due to the current circumstances you were no longer able to.

Truth be told, the emails you have shared with me in private regarding Nathan's knives... some of the best writing I have ever read, period. Better than anything I have ever done.

I am sure, 100% certain that if you wrote what you had written in a public review, regular forum members would be lining up to help you. I don't deserve any more thanks than you have given.

 

[JustinFournier]

I think the way he sells them is really fun and fair. I'll never get one with the Friday sales program but that's just because it's a hot item. The proxy buys kill it for me. I won't even try. I got on the list in the pre sale thread but if I would've missed that thread, I'd probably be one of the people that would lose interest and not persue the knife

I honestly agree with Nathan, that perhaps next year, maybe by the summer things will calm right down and the sales will mellow out. I would hate to see you or anyone else leave the brand, but understand the frustration in having to wait.

I am glad the pre-order thread went so well, and I do think we will see more of them when the current list is fulfilled. It helps Nathan satisfy demand, and it helps customers with an alternative to the proxy mayhem. There will be people who love it, and people who hate it. I am glad to see an alternative.

 

[JustinFournier]

My friend Rick Lowe scored a EDC for me while I was in the hospital having a couple of coronary arteries unclogged during the Friday sale...

Glad to hear you are OK, and hope you continue to enjoy both Rick, and Nathan's work in good health Gus. My old roomate from years ago, died suddenly of a massive heart attack last weekend. No previous issues.

... I'm not really looking to become a CPK collector. I might try for one of those fancy handles or a SK just for the hell of it, even though my computer sucks, and I need another knife like I need a hole in my head! [emoji12]

Considering the cocobolo UF, and the others, you are a collector even if you didn't intend to become one. Your only hope of avoiding this is to send me that UF immediately, and then go out and perform several cutting tasks with each of the others. If you need help with any other problems feel free to let me know anytime!

 

[JustinFournier]

But it would be nice to have n actual shot at one but the list is more conducive for me.

I'm trying to decide to wait and maybe have a chance at one or buy a different knife sooner that I like less but know I can get. And I'm probably not the only one in that spot.

That's were you loose folks.

Depending on your timeline, you may have to look for an alternative. If you have some time, I think the FK list will wrap up, and then we will see another list, most likely for the EDC. It is the logical model to do next.

In the meantime, you can give Friday sales a shot. The Tapatalk on a 4G or LTE and a good phone with close geographical proximity to the servers out east are the fastest way to make a post. It would take less than 60 seconds if you did it right. First couple times it might not work out, but you will learn from each try and no doubt will be competitive. Maybe you can do it on a pro-d day or something.

Keep an eye on the exchange as well, several EDC's have already changed hands on there.

 

[JustinFournier]

Now if we're talking more about the upcoming specialty sale, maybe that's a little different animal. Myself, I will not be asking anyone to proxy for me on a sale like that, nor would I proxy for another on a sale like that (like I'm fast enough for anyone to want me to proxy ) But that's just my personal take, not something I'm trying to hold anyone else to. I probably won't be fast enough to score anything on that sale, but if I do, with the specialty options, it will be that much more treasured. I do love the thrill of the hunt on Nate's sales

I really think that this is one I will enter for myself, or not at all at this point. If it it only special handles, I think it would be better people who use them get them, though I know 100% for sure, there will be people there who will sell them. Just the way it is.

 

[Gusbuster]

Nice try Justin! Guilty as charged, I'll admit it, I'm a collector of Nathan's fine knives! No way I'm letting go of that Cocobolo UF! :thumbup:

 

[JustinFournier]

I am not overly thrilled with the concept of proxy buying in this instance because I think that the consensus is that some folks are at an advantage simply based in part on their location relative to the server.

If the ground was truly even--say Nathan used a random number generator to pick posts from everyone who posted their interest in the first hour after the thread was opened--then I would not care about proxies AND Nathan would still have every knife sold. If you want to double your chance, simply get a proxy to help out. It would not necessarily need to be someone who lived right next to the server, had a fast connection or a fast computer.. The way proxies work under the existing scheme, speed and proximity to the target (server) comes into play, as well as how fast your connection and computer are. And some folks are clearly faster than other folks.

True, but should they be punished for it?

It's easy to see how some who miss out might become bitter or discouraged by repeated failed attempts to get a knife. After all, what will change for them the next time such that they might be able to actually score? More knives? No.

The sales have gotten bigger, now 10-15 so that helps more unique people get in, vs having 5 where it could be several of the same people each time. Nathan has doubled his output recently, maybe there is more than double the demand?

They are faster? No.

I hope they do get faster. Each time they attempt to buy I would expect they critique the technique they used and see if if could be improved. Several people have got a spot on their first try recently, so it is working to a certain extent. I live on the opposite side of the country as the server and I always place reasonably high. There was even a winner from Europe last sale. I still see room to make small improvements like pasting fewer characters like 'aaaaa' to get my post in faster, I just chose not to do that as I think it shows poor sportsmanship and is below the standard of behavior I have set for myself as a proxy buyer.

There are fewer folks competing for the limited knives? No.

I can't answer that accurately, since I have no evidence other than a few observations, but if Nathan has doubled his output, and sales are getting even faster, that would lead me to believe on average people are improving. While there may not be LESS people total, there should be less experienced people who can compete. Someone who has tried several times should be faster on average, and likely improved their performance relative to the average person as the higher number of new people should slow the average post speed down. So the person who has gotten fast after a few tries should get a knife then stop competing, to be replaced by someone just a little back in the cycle.

There are exceptions like people with slow connections who might be the very fastest to post overall on their end, but won't have a chance to do so because they can't get the speed of thier internet.

Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results has occasionally been called the definition of insanity. It is what it is I guess.

When it is all said and done though, it is Nathan and Jo who decide how sales will be conducted, and it is they who should decide how the sales will be conducted.[/QUOTE]

Currently Nathan and Jo are very supportive of proxy buying. There are simple ways they could change their current procedure and make it much easier for them, while significantly discouraging proxy buying, but they have chosen not to do that. So at this point I see them as being in favor in action, not just in words.

If one was curious they could go back through sales, see who has bought multiples, how much feedback they have to gauge their selling/buying activity level, and see all the threads they have created to determine how often they buy/sell, and their interests and contribution to the forums. If one was to do that, they would find that very few of the people are buying for profit, or "proxying" to resell or trade.. So it's certainly not always the same people buying the knives, though a few people are often present. Additionally, the demand on the older stuff or more niche stuff is tapering. Like the LC.

Toddler interupted me and I lost my train of thought. Sorry

 

[JustinFournier]

Nice try Justin! Guilty as charged, I'll admit it, I'm a collector of Nathan's fine knives! No way I'm letting go of that Cocobolo UF! :thumbup:

Not even if I have a UF that is lonely with no other wood UF's to hang out with, and being the voluntary self-appointed chairman of Save-a-CPK international I can promise it a good home?

 

[Gusbuster]

Sorry but my wood UF is destined for a life of solitude! [emoji23]


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[JustinFournier]

Sorry but my wood UF is destined for a life of solitude! [emoji23]

 

[coiledwire]

I'm assuming a proxy is a guaranteed sale in this discussion.

To keep stuff fun and achievable, the ratio of proxy to normal sale shouldn't exceed ~1/3 of the available knives. That way most of the keyboard warriors can be rewarded for their practice, perseverance, and luck.

Proxies is likely occurring on every sale here. However, it's my opinion that such proxies should be private and not in the view of the public eye. That applies not only to the act of the proxy, but also the terms involved. There's nothing free in this society; whether it's monetary, future favors, or even karma, there's something being exchanged for this service. All of the above should never be public knowledge.

Hear no proxy, see no proxy, there is no proxy.

 

[timichango]

If anyone is reading, and hesitating to post, please don't wait. Post up. The more opinions the more constructive this will be.

Hello

I only recently became aware of the CPK knives, and in particular the Lorien collab ones, as I've only more recently started becoming more acquainted with the smaller knife makers and brands in the market. I've been into benchmades and beckers and barkies for a number of years now, but my tastes and interests have been shifting towards Survive, CPK, fiddleback, Winkler, and some of the other smaller makers on the board here. I discovered the CPK Field Knife + EDC after already placing a presale order for a Survive knife a while back, and when I wound up being in the winning set of folks in the last field knife sale, I wound up having to pass on it for cash flow reasons.

And honestly? I've been wracked with some low-grade anxiety ever since, after hearing that the line would be discontinued next year. Will I wind up being able to score another when cash flow is less tight? Will I be the beneficiary of someone else bowing out or helping with a proxy purchase? Or will I miss out entirely on something that was within my grasp, but I had to let slide due to circumstances, on account of either not being fast enough (or having a fast enough connection), and/or not being well enough connected or in the 'in-group' to be able to benefit from any kind of proxy favours?

Frankly, I really hate having to even consider these factors in making a knife (or any) purchase. I'm not a gambling man, and I personally dislike lotteries, and when it comes to first-past-the-post web sales, that's often more or less what it amounts to.

The intention to help 'forum regulars' (not your words, I realize) get their hands on what they're looking for is a fine and generous notion, but it does theoretically lead to a huge 'in-group' advantage in securing knives. Which, depending on your view, is just fine — though it does then bias the product towards being a kind of 'club privilege' rather than a product intended for the wider market.


Quoting a snippet from one of your earlier replies to another member:

Reading back through the sales, I could see you had been buying since the D2 skinner days, and when we spoke, it was clear you were a massive fan. You are exactly the type of person I wanted to help.

This is where it kind of gets philosophical for me: should the long-time fans and collectors necessarily have a purchasing advantage (ie. constraining the knives to the existing sales pool), or should the new fans have an equal and fair chance to pick up their first CPK (ie. expanding the sales pool)?

It's all just food for thought, I guess. In the end, I like to plink down my cash and buy what I want, without the requirement for luck or favours.

That said, given that luck and/or favours seem to be de-rigeur in getting one of these things, I hope I have one or the other (or both) when I try for an EDC

 

[captjlw]

Hello

I only recently became aware of the CPK knives, and in particular the Lorien collab ones, as I've only more recently started becoming more acquainted with the smaller knife makers and brands in the market. I've been into benchmades and beckers and barkies for a number of years now, but my tastes and interests have been shifting towards Survive, CPK, fiddleback, Winkler, and some of the other smaller makers on the board here. I discovered the CPK Field Knife + EDC after already placing a presale order for a Survive knife a while back, and when I wound up being in the winning set of folks in the last field knife sale, I wound up having to pass on it for cash flow reasons.

And honestly? I've been wracked with some low-grade anxiety ever since, after hearing that the line would be discontinued next year. Will I wind up being able to score another when cash flow is less tight? Will I be the beneficiary of someone else bowing out or helping with a proxy purchase? Or will I miss out entirely on something that was within my grasp, but I had to let slide due to circumstances, on account of either not being fast enough (or having a fast enough connection), and/or not being well enough connected or in the 'in-group' to be able to benefit from any kind of proxy favours?

Frankly, I really hate having to even consider these factors in making a knife (or any) purchase. I'm not a gambling man, and I personally dislike lotteries, and when it comes to first-past-the-post web sales, that's often more or less what it amounts to.

The intention to help 'forum regulars' (not your words, I realize) get their hands on what they're looking for is a fine and generous notion, but it does theoretically lead to a huge 'in-group' advantage in securing knives. Which, depending on your view, is just fine — though it does then bias the product towards being a kind of 'club privilege' rather than a product intended for the wider market.


Quoting a snippet from one of your earlier replies to another member:



This is where it kind of gets philosophical for me: should the long-time fans and collectors necessarily have a purchasing advantage (ie. constraining the knives to the existing sales pool), or should the new fans have an equal and fair chance to pick up their first CPK (ie. expanding the sales pool)?

It's all just food for thought, I guess. In the end, I like to plink down my cash and buy what I want, without the requirement for luck or favours.

That said, given that luck and/or favours seem to be de-rigeur in getting one of these things, I hope I have one or the other (or both) when I try for an EDC

Agreed. I am fortunate enough to have a FK and a LC but really want to add an EDC but can't seem to make the cut however hard I try. I'd be happy with a proxy buy but understand via the well worded post above. If someone is willing to get one on my behalf I'd be grateful and guilt free because I have tried each time they've been offered and failed to get in under the wire. Had I not tried I'm not sure it would be proper to call on a proxy to get one for me. Of course I could be entirely wrong with this perspective. Ethics can be tricky and realize that for some the ethical limit means if it can be "gotten away with" then it's ok.


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[JustinFournier]

timichango,

This will be a little sloppy since I'm on my phone quickly putting this reply out before I get started at work for the day. Please forgive me.

The snipet you quoted is exactly the conflict I am wondering about. With an older customer who has been buying for years and helped support Nathan and Jo so they could get to where they are today, should they be literally cut out of the current model because, as you demonstrated a new guy can come in and get a knife on his first try without any struggle?

If Nathan said OK well I want to help my regulars as well and started some kind of tier system wouldn't that lead to a massive inequity between new and old customers? That would be a massive in-group preference which I do not think is a great idea to have public. Like the maker clubs.

Of course new customers are going to be really key to Nathan's long term success and I believe that is why Nathan uses a model that does not massively favour existing or long term customers.

I like what coiledwire said as well, where the volume of proxy sales are a small fraction of the knives sold each sale so that there is a reasonable availability for all parties involved.

At the end of the day you won a spot to buy a knife you couldn't even buy on your first try while others have been stumped time and time again. No reason to think you couldn't do it again. An older customer also got his knife so today it seems like there were more winners than losers.

 

[Casinostocks]

Coiled has articulated this very well and eloquently. Let the burden of the proxy be between the involved parties to work out the details in between one another so to not burden Jo / Nathan with change of addressee and payee requests (full disclosure: I am guilty of this sin once although I had initiated the payment but changed the address to the person whom I had proxied for which I shall never do again!). Thereafter, if Nathan wants to become akin to The Soup Nazi and tell someone who has scored 4-5 of the same in a tight and competitive sale cycle that, "no more new CPK for you", then it is up to Nathan/Jo as the owners of this business. If they're fine with the first-come-first-served system, irrespective of their past scoring, then it is really no one's business as it is a CPK policy decision.

Finally, I think that Nathan / Jo will try their best to keep everyone happy by offering a preorder list as some point on every CPK line as I think that the now closed CPK-FK thread perhaps went more smoothly than Nathan had originally anticipated! JMHO!

 

[timichango]

timichango,

This will be a little sloppy since I'm on my phone quickly putting this reply out before I get started at work for the day. Please forgive me.

The snipet you quoted is exactly the conflict I am wondering about. With an older customer who has been buying for years and helped support Nathan and Jo so they could get to where they are today, should they be literally cut out of the current model because, as you demonstrated a new guy can come in and get a knife on his first try without any struggle?

If Nathan said OK well I want to help my regulars as well and started some kind of tier system wouldn't that lead to a massive inequity between new and old customers? That would be a massive in-group preference which I do not think is a great idea to have public. Like the maker clubs.

Of course new customers are going to be really key to Nathan's long term success and I believe that is why Nathan uses a model that does not massively favour existing or long term customers.

I like what coiledwire said as well, where the volume of proxy sales are a small fraction of the knives sold each sale so that there is a reasonable availability for all parties involved.

At the end of the day you won a spot to buy a knife you couldn't even buy on your first try while others have been stumped time and time again. No reason to think you couldn't do it again. An older customer also got his knife so today it seems like there were more winners than losers.

Hey Justin,

Good thoughts, and not sloppy at all.

I agree with your thoughts on the unfairness of a tiered system. Ultimately that's down to the discretion of whichever maker and how they want to sell their knives, and — particularly for makers who're catering to the collector rather than user market — in some cases I imagine that keeping the faithful happy makes a lot of good business sense, and I wouldn't begrudge a maker that choice. I certainly give preferential availability of my services to my established clientele in my business. That said, I work in a serviced-based industry (software development), and my clients have ongoing and evolving needs, so it might not be the most direct comparison — but client loyalty definitely matters in business, no doubt, and I try to do good by my repeaters.

Anyways, whenever something's in limited supply, there's never going to be a really perfect way to strike the balance between ensuring that the folks with invested energy are going to be correctly accommodated in balance with keeping access potential fair for the rest of the market. I've seen that reality play out in a myriad of contexts ranging from goods to services to other commodities (eg. event tickets where the event needs to balance access for volunteers with attendees), and no matter what, whenever there's too little of a thing, one of two things happens:

1. Supply increases to meet demand
2. Folks get left out in the cold, and the secondary market prices get jacked

Part of what contributes to the scramble to get in on the CPK sales (and the subsequent disappointment when folks strike out) is the perceived limitation of supply, over time: because the line is said to be getting discontinued, there's a finite eventual quantity, and inevitably that spikes demand past what it'd otherwise be in the short term (ie. if supply was going to be theoretically unlimited, but over a longer timeframe), folks (like me) would probably just sit it out until demand calmed down some.

Unfortunately, that's not the reality: supply will be finite, so demand will remain high, and therefore luck and/or favours will continue to be a prerequisite to getting a knife. Which is a bummer if you don't love relying on those things. The sentiment you expressed in your original post:

When I see people who miss, and are getting frustrated making comments like, "Guess this is not the brand for me." or similar, I just ughhhh. I really hate to see that. I believe in Nathan and Jo. I believe they have an amazing synergy with Lorien right now and are truly putting out some amazing knives with all things considered.

...is understandable, but the "Guess this is not the brand for me..." sentiment is inevitable when it takes more than appreciation and currency to get a product. Those factors are always going to turn some people off.

For my part, I'd really rather it was just a product, and not a sort of game that needs to be played and won, but in the end the knives are appealing enough for me to try out for another now that my badly-timed cashflow blip is resolved. Not counting on my luck, though, and I'm new around here, so I'm not counting on favours either

Which is to say that I'm not counting on owning one at all.

As an afterthought, I also want to clarify that all of this is kinda neither here-nor-there with regards to proxy selling: I don't have a problem with it, and I think you're ultimately doing right by folks in my book. Give'er, good sir.