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Sharpening equipment question
- Thread starter nhyrum
- Start date
+1
Jason B (MrEdgy on YouTube ... well worth watching) has helped me greatly on my sharpening journey.
A quick look on Amazon showed the following prices for a DMT Coarse stone in the following sizes and prices:
$32.55 - 6" Long x 2" wide
$55.45 - 8" Long x 3" wide
$72.54 - 11.5" Long x 2.5" wide
Depending on what the sizes of the knives you are sharpening, a larger stone may be more useful in the long run, but cause a need of saving up a bit longer due to increased cost. My first stone was purchased about 10 years ago and it was a DMT Coarse in the 11.5 x 2.5 size. I grew frustrated with sharpening because I did not take the time to research, learn and practice. I came back to sharpening this past Christmas and started watching a lot of YouTube videos, reading a lot of forums and starting to reach out to folk by email, phone and posts on the forums. Lo and behold, that DMT coarse works GREAT, when you use it correctly. =)
All the best to you as you start your sharpening journey ... you can spend a ton of money and have a ton of stones and still be a poor sharpener, "Beware of the person with one sharpening stone!"
One stone with different pressures and strokes can be many stones in one.
Enjoy.
I saw those. My one confusion... Some looked like regular stones, others had little circles all over them. What's the difference between the two. Both were dmt.
That's part of my original question. Were the two stones, 1k and 6k enough. I have ruled out anything over 10k, until I start using a straight razor (right now I use a straight razor with training wheels, a safety razor) because of edge retention, and then I'd be using different strops and not a 30k glass
Will the kings, with a 140 coarse atoma be a good place to start and learn technique on cheap knives? Or should I go with shipton stones no matter?
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.
DMT DuoSharp - Diamonds applied on a yellow-plastic backing, little circles are voids in the diamond application ... said to allow swarf a place to go and allow the stone to not clog as fast.
DMT DiaSharp - Diamonds applied to a steel plate, continuous diamonds, no circles/voids.
.
I prefer the DiaSharp, my preference can be the opposite of someone else's. I tried both at a Woodcraft store and just like the Diasharp continuous style best, for me.
.
"Is it enough - 1k & 6k". Phew! Depending on what you are trying to achieve ... if you are talking straight razors, I have no experience in that field. If your talking pocket knives and kitchen knives then I can say a DMT coarse and a strop like Jason B. describes will get you started in fine shape.
I tried a Kings duo stone and it was not for me. I do best with diamonds (DMT currently, looking at an EZE-Lap) and Shapton Glass. Also, I started with edge trailing strokes ... always. I'm starting to use edge leading on my diamonds and Spyderco Ceramic Bench Stones and seem to be doing better with this way of sharpening.
It's one big experiment. I've watched all of Jason B's YouTube videos as MrEdgy ... I cannot duplicate what he does, except once I got in a zone and mimicked his style and it worked! Next day, nothing. I've found something that works for now, but enjoy trying the other styles of sharpening to broaden my knowledge and perhaps one day, learn something better than what I am doing currently.
Unfortunately, most of the knives I receive from friends and family are in rough shape and I had to get something coarser to save my sanity and time at the sharpening table. Also, I use a Spyderco Medium Benchstone for my last polish of the blade. Just this morning, I sharpened a kitchen knife .... Shapton Glass 220 - DMT Coarse - Spyderco Medium, method was Scrub - Edge Leading - Edge Leading.
Those 3 stones are my workhorse, but for others their workhorse is a different set of stones, grits, etc.
Hope this helps.
All the best.
DMT DuoSharp - Diamonds applied on a yellow-plastic backing, little circles are voids in the diamond application ... said to allow swarf a place to go and allow the stone to not clog as fast.
DMT DiaSharp - Diamonds applied to a steel plate, continuous diamonds, no circles/voids.
.
I prefer the DiaSharp, my preference can be the opposite of someone else's. I tried both at a Woodcraft store and just like the Diasharp continuous style best, for me.
.
"Is it enough - 1k & 6k". Phew! Depending on what you are trying to achieve ... if you are talking straight razors, I have no experience in that field. If your talking pocket knives and kitchen knives then I can say a DMT coarse and a strop like Jason B. describes will get you started in fine shape.
I tried a Kings duo stone and it was not for me. I do best with diamonds (DMT currently, looking at an EZE-Lap) and Shapton Glass. Also, I started with edge trailing strokes ... always. I'm starting to use edge leading on my diamonds and Spyderco Ceramic Bench Stones and seem to be doing better with this way of sharpening.
It's one big experiment. I've watched all of Jason B's YouTube videos as MrEdgy ... I cannot duplicate what he does, except once I got in a zone and mimicked his style and it worked! Next day, nothing. I've found something that works for now, but enjoy trying the other styles of sharpening to broaden my knowledge and perhaps one day, learn something better than what I am doing currently.
Unfortunately, most of the knives I receive from friends and family are in rough shape and I had to get something coarser to save my sanity and time at the sharpening table. Also, I use a Spyderco Medium Benchstone for my last polish of the blade. Just this morning, I sharpened a kitchen knife .... Shapton Glass 220 - DMT Coarse - Spyderco Medium, method was Scrub - Edge Leading - Edge Leading.
Those 3 stones are my workhorse, but for others their workhorse is a different set of stones, grits, etc.
Hope this helps.
All the best.
DeadboxHero
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
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140 is too course of a jump to 1k
If you use a 140 diamond the scratches carve deep into the steel.
That's why Jason recommend the 500 grit stone.
As far as Shapton pros versus King waterstones
The number 1 factor is user skill, techniques and knowledge.
Last is equipment.
The Shapton do have several advantages.
They cut faster, dish less(hollow out) which means less flattening more sharpening. They are harder and doent require a long 30min soak.
It's either a light soak (less then 5min) or splash and go.
So it's faster set up too.
Disadvantages
Are cost. There's some others disadvantages too but they are irrelevant to our topic
Conversely,
The king stones are affordable
There are softer which give them a great feel at the cost of dishing fast. They can take longer too on stainless steels.
They require a soak but can be left permanent soaked
So there at the ready.
I'm a strong advocate for reducing the entry cost without being left with poor equipment.
The king stones are at that line.
I'm not telling you to buy the kings just making sure you have options for an informed decision.
Jasons recommendation gives you a great foundation for acquiring high end stones
Also the 140 diamond, 500 ceramic combo with a strop will be a much faster set up then a 1k-6k king
Which could reduce frustration with a shorter time to sharpen.
The kings are fully capable they just need a course DMT stone to flatten them and take care of all your reprofiling and edge repair work.
If you use a 140 diamond the scratches carve deep into the steel.
That's why Jason recommend the 500 grit stone.
As far as Shapton pros versus King waterstones
The number 1 factor is user skill, techniques and knowledge.
Last is equipment.
The Shapton do have several advantages.
They cut faster, dish less(hollow out) which means less flattening more sharpening. They are harder and doent require a long 30min soak.
It's either a light soak (less then 5min) or splash and go.
So it's faster set up too.
Disadvantages
Are cost. There's some others disadvantages too but they are irrelevant to our topic
Conversely,
The king stones are affordable
There are softer which give them a great feel at the cost of dishing fast. They can take longer too on stainless steels.
They require a soak but can be left permanent soaked
So there at the ready.
I'm a strong advocate for reducing the entry cost without being left with poor equipment.
The king stones are at that line.
I'm not telling you to buy the kings just making sure you have options for an informed decision.
Jasons recommendation gives you a great foundation for acquiring high end stones
Also the 140 diamond, 500 ceramic combo with a strop will be a much faster set up then a 1k-6k king
Which could reduce frustration with a shorter time to sharpen.
The kings are fully capable they just need a course DMT stone to flatten them and take care of all your reprofiling and edge repair work.
Thanks, I must have missed that. 140 to 1000 is a big jump... Don't know how I missed that one
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DMT Stones! You'll never need a new one. The coarse/fine and a strop serves all of my needs perfectly well and has lasted about a year.
Wowbagger
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oh and keep the batteries in your magic wand well charged.
I am not saying that is wrong. For the way I sharpen I totally agree. That is a BIG jump.
but
just to show how broad the sharpening technique world can be I know guys that would jump on that combo or even go much more fine. Say 140 to 6000.
crazy talk you say. Yes I used to bang the table and argue that it was.
Here is how they get great results. Their whole point for the big jump is speed (shortest time from chipped and dinged and dull edge to an edge that is pretty darned impressive for wood working etc).
Grind away on the coarse stone until the flaws and dullness is gone but do this first bevel well bellow the final edge angle. Then steepen the bevel noticeably and sharpen on the fine stone but with the intent of only getting the smallest little bevel with the fine stone. This translates to high psi at the edge and since there is so very little material to remove the fine stone is able to get rid of the coarse "scratches" (really just extremely short shallow teeth) and so leave a polished edge.
Weird Huh ?
Still creeps me out but it works once you know how. They usually don't even use the coarse stone they use a bench grinder on the wide shallow bevel and then go to the 6000 stone way up on the very tippy edge.
I spend 15 or twenty minutes getting my polished edge that looks so good for the Magazine photos.
They spend literally a minute. To the naked eye the edge looks like the edge on a hoe but they cut very similarly.
The "magazine edge" looks like this. I'm addicted.
Their edge looks like that too right at the very, very edge of the bevel if you looked at it with a microscope. Well maybe not that good but close.
Oh and PS: they don't use a strop.
What the stones with the round dots look like up close. I like these for flattening stones. I don't care for them when it comes to sharpening smaller edges like small pocket knives.
I am not saying that is wrong. For the way I sharpen I totally agree. That is a BIG jump.
but
just to show how broad the sharpening technique world can be I know guys that would jump on that combo or even go much more fine. Say 140 to 6000.
crazy talk you say. Yes I used to bang the table and argue that it was.
Here is how they get great results. Their whole point for the big jump is speed (shortest time from chipped and dinged and dull edge to an edge that is pretty darned impressive for wood working etc).
Grind away on the coarse stone until the flaws and dullness is gone but do this first bevel well bellow the final edge angle. Then steepen the bevel noticeably and sharpen on the fine stone but with the intent of only getting the smallest little bevel with the fine stone. This translates to high psi at the edge and since there is so very little material to remove the fine stone is able to get rid of the coarse "scratches" (really just extremely short shallow teeth) and so leave a polished edge.
Weird Huh ?
Still creeps me out but it works once you know how. They usually don't even use the coarse stone they use a bench grinder on the wide shallow bevel and then go to the 6000 stone way up on the very tippy edge.
I spend 15 or twenty minutes getting my polished edge that looks so good for the Magazine photos.
They spend literally a minute. To the naked eye the edge looks like the edge on a hoe but they cut very similarly.
The "magazine edge" looks like this. I'm addicted.
Their edge looks like that too right at the very, very edge of the bevel if you looked at it with a microscope. Well maybe not that good but close.
Oh and PS: they don't use a strop.
What the stones with the round dots look like up close. I like these for flattening stones. I don't care for them when it comes to sharpening smaller edges like small pocket knives.
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Hehe,
That thread I linked includes your opinion on these stones, the beauty of a link, no point in going in circles
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Assuming the SAK is a quality brand (Victorinox or Wenger), it should sharpen up easily on most any stone, including Arkansas stones, if you're wanting to try those. Make sure to use them with oil, so they won't clog up. Might also do OK for the other 'cheap' knives, though poor-quality steels sometimes don't sharpen up as well, no matter what's used. I'm assuming the BM Griptilian is a bit more wear-resistant steel, so it may not respond as well to the Arkansas stones. The stone suggestions from Jason B. for those should serve you well.
David
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For $50 I'd look into getting a Norton Crystalon or ACE silicon carbide combination stone, some oil, and some dollar or Goodwill knives to practice on. Use mineral oil on the stone, and the oil and abrasive mud can be smeared on a sheet of paper, wrapped around the same stone, and used for a refining strop. As you get more comfortable sharpening you may want to branch out to more stones, but that Crystalon will never sit idle for long. The combination silicon carbide stone is the AK47 of the sharpening world - not really great at anything, but good at a great many things and virtually unstoppable with a bare minimum of maintenance.
If going for the Kings I'd get the 800 and 4k instead of the 1k and 6k. More versatility as the 800 is very close in finish to the 1k but can do more repair etc faster and the 4k is close to the 6k in finish but again works faster and IMHO has a better 'feel' to it.
Lastly, I make a sharpening block that works with wet/dry, lapping films, paper and honing compound. Without shipping is $47, comes in a kit that will cover a full range of sharpening. It also aids in learning/dialing in freehand technique - link to the website below in my signature for more info.
Even if you decide not to buy, there's plenty of useful freehand sharpening content in the user videos.
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I'd second the washboard. If nothing else, the learning of 'listening' to the bevel flushed against stone is enhanced tremendously, and one doesn't have to deal with flattening at all.
A very good multipurpose sharpening gadget, and the final strop is as flat as a strop can go.
:thumbup:
A very good multipurpose sharpening gadget, and the final strop is as flat as a strop can go.
:thumbup:
sarcasm???
I picked up the ace combo stone.
Oil vs water. And if oil, I have copious amounts of tri flow at my office, will that do?
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I'd stick with mineral oil - even the stuff from your pharmacy or grocery store works fine and has a good track record with many. If someone else that's used it says OK then I'd go ahead, otherwise no.
Wowbagger
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Well perhaps humor that missed the mark. Sharpening without a jig is almost akin to luck and magic . . . I'm all about sharpening jigs even though I can fee hand. I almost think free handing is a humorous waste of time so I get a bit flippant. I wish some one would have given me a dope slap when I was young and said : "look . . . kid. . . you are spending way too much time and thought and effort on all this . . . do you want to spend your time sharpening or do you just want sharp tools so you can get on with creating something with the edge tools ? Just use a jig and geeeeeterdone."
They would tell me :" would you expect people at the drill bit factory to sharpen the drill bits by hand ? No they put them in a machine that holds them in perfect relationship to the sharpening equipment and you get a precise consistently sharp product each time very quickly why would you want anything less for your knife ?"
Instead I spent years farting around with sharpening junk and getting sad disappointing results.
Free handing is challenging and satisfying but it is kind of like rowing across the ocean. I know a gal that has done that but I assure you when she just wants to get back home to England from the states she doesn't get out her row boat she gets on a plane if you see what I mean.
So yah wave a magic wand and HOPE or put your edge tool in a jig take about fifty passes total for a magazine mirror finish that will be so sharp you will be scared to pick up the tool / knife once you see what it is capable of (many less passes for good enough sharp).
OR
take hundreds of strokes and rub around and around and test it and wonder and think and be frustrated and . . .
free handing it.
So I guess that was what the magic wand comment was.
Sorry
I just know where you could go if you are willing to spend a little more for a jig.
For instance one sharpening vid says "Ok now that you spent all that time on those stones free hand now strop for like fifty strokes on each side.
HAH !
I can sharpen a blade on five stones ten strokes each, that's fifty strokes . . . not two times fifty strokes (plus all the strokes on the other stones he did) and be DONE and have a much more precisely formed cutting edge that is sharper and easier to resharpen latter.
Anyway
to the Tri Flow
Most definitly NOT ! ! ! !
Use kerosene or sharpening fluid or even water on the oil stones if you have never used oil on them.
TriFlow has all these particles that are going to clog the stones BIG TIME ! ! !
The reason for the "oil" , actually more like kerosene as I said, is it keeps the rustable blades from rusting. I don't need all the smell and mess. Some say water is mess. I don't feel that way. I use water on my hard ark, the two times a year that I use it. Works just fine.
Lol I'm all for jokes. If I had known your "opposition" to freehand I probably would have gotten it.
For jigs, what would you recommend? Sharpmaker? Wicked edge (if I want to be in the dog house with the wife BIG TIME)?
for me, it's like wanting to learn how to do things the manual way first. Learn to dive on a stick, and driving an auto becomes a breeze. But, you can drive a stick if it comes down to it. After I get the feel of freehand, and learn what it takes to get a sharp, refined edge, then I can get a jig and spend money on getting wicked sharp, shaving refined edges...
Funny story about that drill bit thing... My highschool auto shop teacher hand sharpened all his drill bits, even right out of the box, freehand. Didn't feel that even quality bits were sharp enough
I tried the tri flow. I didn't like it at all. Plain water got a much nicer edge, faster. So just gonna use free water
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For jigs, what would you recommend? Sharpmaker? Wicked edge (if I want to be in the dog house with the wife BIG TIME)?
for me, it's like wanting to learn how to do things the manual way first. Learn to dive on a stick, and driving an auto becomes a breeze. But, you can drive a stick if it comes down to it. After I get the feel of freehand, and learn what it takes to get a sharp, refined edge, then I can get a jig and spend money on getting wicked sharp, shaving refined edges...
Funny story about that drill bit thing... My highschool auto shop teacher hand sharpened all his drill bits, even right out of the box, freehand. Didn't feel that even quality bits were sharp enough
I tried the tri flow. I didn't like it at all. Plain water got a much nicer edge, faster. So just gonna use free water
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Wowbagger
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I might be over reacting but for the best stone performance you might want to let the stone dry really well. Do not try to speed up the drying by using heat.
anyway you might want to clean the danged try flow out of the stone with some paint thinner or other fairly mild solvent. I know try flow, it has like teflon flakes or beads in it and it is going to make the blade glide over the stone smoothly rather than cut like a devil.
As far as the jig. That depends on the size of the majority of knives you sharpen. Medium (three inch, four inch etc.) you could get away with a fairly inexpensive jig. I prefer the Edge Pro but probably the Wicked Edge makes better edges as far as the way they look. The Edge pro tends to get a bit shallower angle out on the tip. The results off the Edge Pro compared to my best hair witting effort free hand is . . . astonishingly better at say trimming finger nails for example. My free hand edge is a bit rounded, people dig the heck out of that here though, . . . anyway the free hand edge I trim the finger nails little chips at a time, maybe get a curl coming off here or there, can feel some resistance from the wedge of the blade in the hard nail.
Then
try the Edge Pro edge. Night and day. Cuts easier with less wedging resistance, cuts cleaner with less tearing, I get larger chips and larger numbers of curls coming off. I am all about testing an edge on stuff other than cutting hair. Any old stropped edge will cut hair. Cutting hard stuff though they choke.
I hear you about the drill bits and touching them up free hand. I do that. I guess I am talking about a banged up edge or a piece of drill stock that has no profile yet. Plus if the bit is chucked in a drill press and one edge is higher than the other that edge won't be doing much work and the bit can wander off course.
Yes it is astonishing that they don't keep the bit grinders aligned well at many of the drill bit makers. But the point is if those same people were sharpening the bits by hand they would be even worse. And would spend more time doing it.
PS: About driving the stick shift . . .
ha, ha, I have a perfectly preposterous but true story about that. I swear I am not making this up.
When I was a little kid I was SO INTO HOT RODS and cars in general. I read all the build it yourself hot rod magazines and I had a big plastic model of a V8 engine that I built with pistons and stuff. I couldn't draw a realistic dog or horse or person but I could draw automobiles that looked realistic. Next door was a hot rodder and I used to hang out with him. I often say I spent my pre teen years sliding sideways while sitting in the passenger seat of a '65 Mustang. It was semi automatic. There is a reason I mention that; bear with me.
So I go along and go along and by the time I can afford a car I am into other things and had lost interest in cars. I took driver's ed (automatic transmissions) and carried a driver's license but I did not drive and had no car. I rode my bicycle to work. I was nineteen or twenty . So I get this job and everything is cool until one day out of the blue the boss says "hey get in that dump truck and drive it over there so those guys can load it up then take it to the dump and dump it". I kind of went "Oh sure no prob".
Then I get in the truck and of course it is a standard, clutch, stick shift set up. We are talking 1970s. I just thought . . . well I know how these things work and the theory behind it. Get some rpms up on the engine for some momentum from the flywheel, let the clutch pedal up slow so the truck can start to move a bit before letting the clutch out all the way.
I just got in and did that and off I went and figur'd it out from there as I went. I don't think I ever stalled that old truck.
Anyway that was the first time I ever drove a stick shift in my life but I could have probably installed a new clutch in a car if I had to because I had read all about it for years.
Kind of a nerd moment don't you think ?
PS: I have since installed clutches and engines so I am not exaggerating.
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Can I soak the stone in 409? I hear the dishwasher is also good for cleaning stones. I've been going to town on the secondary bevel of a knife to get it straight, so I just bought a cheap coarse diamond "stone" to flatten the stone. Maybe that will help remove the oil clogged area?
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Put it in a pan of water, stand it off the bottom by resting it on crossed forks or butterknives. Bring to a boil and toss in a dishwasher slug if you have one handy. let it boil for a few minutes, move to the sink, add hot water slowly till all the oil drifts off the top.
I still recommend using mineral oil - over the long haul your stone will stay in much better condition.
Wowbagger
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HeavyHanded,
I must say I am surprised. More than surprised.
As cutting "oil" is nothing like lubricating oil . . . sharpening fluid "oil" is nothing like . . . well . . . lubricating oil.
Kerosene really is much closer to say . . . Buck sharpening stone oil than is mineral oil "Baby Oil" from the pharmacy.
To start I would go MUCH lighter weight, runnier, closer to water than motor oil and really the whole point is to have a fluid that secondarily doesn't initiate rusting of the blade but primarily it should float metal swarf out of the pores of the stone while allowing the grit of the stone to get a good bite on the steel. I find mineral oil, basically motor oil, to get a bit gummy once it gets some house dust on it. The kerosene easily cleans and floats all that off and then gets out of the way of the cutting edges of the grit of the stone.
AwwwwdnO dude.
I must say I am surprised. More than surprised.
As cutting "oil" is nothing like lubricating oil . . . sharpening fluid "oil" is nothing like . . . well . . . lubricating oil.
Kerosene really is much closer to say . . . Buck sharpening stone oil than is mineral oil "Baby Oil" from the pharmacy.
To start I would go MUCH lighter weight, runnier, closer to water than motor oil and really the whole point is to have a fluid that secondarily doesn't initiate rusting of the blade but primarily it should float metal swarf out of the pores of the stone while allowing the grit of the stone to get a good bite on the steel. I find mineral oil, basically motor oil, to get a bit gummy once it gets some house dust on it. The kerosene easily cleans and floats all that off and then gets out of the way of the cutting edges of the grit of the stone.
AwwwwdnO dude.