Sharpness out of the box, traditional knives please

lutejones

lutejones

Joined
Mar 15, 2007
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Hello good fellows of the porch,
I've been thinking due to a post on the case quality thread about the situation today in respect of the sharpness of a new knife.
Maybe the trend has changed with all the modern knives with super steels but for ages edged tools had come from the manufacturer without final sharpening so the owner would apply the final edge tailored to the task at hand.
If the grinds are thin and well done for me that's perfect.
My experience with older GEC before 2011 is that they are too thick but they improved a lot the next year.
I've just received a new case teardrop and it was 0.023" at the shoulders, too thick for my tastes
The best examples I have found are case knives before 1980, beautifully thin.
So what is your take in the matter?
Do you expect shaving sharpness?
I personally prefer to put my own edge right away
 
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0.020" edge base at 12-14 degrees per side for big chopping fixed blades over 9". (CPM steels don't really seem to hold the micro-apex straight under chopping impacts at such angles)

0.010" edge base at 10 degrees per side for hollow ground folders, or zero edges for flat ground mid-height sabre grinds folders.

17 degrees per side on daggers, no edge thickness specified. A few Gerbers have zero or near-zero edges that are close to that from the box.

Almost all knives need a professional re-grind, especially bigger ones.

Highly polished edges seem to have poor edge-holding, until they have a bit of coarse diamond roughness added to their apex.

Gaston
 
For me a sharp knife out of the box is just common sense. If I bought razors that I had to sharpen first I would buy another brand that provided sharp blades.

Having said that, sharpening a brand new knife before I can use it isn't a big deal but it does make the knife seem incomplete.
 
If I buy a saw, I don't expect to have to cut the teeth into the blade. With a knife, I expect it to at least have a usable edge. It doesn't have to pop hair, but it would be nice if the bevels at least met in the middle at an angle lower than 80 degrees.
 
"...I personally prefer to put my own edge right away"
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This is my take on it as well.

It's almost a certainty, I'm going to change something about the edge in some way. About 99% of the time, that at least means it'll be thinned out somewhat, or maybe a whole lot. Even with knives that came with a very crisp & complete apex, and therefore 'acceptably' sharp, it's likely I'll still want to make it my own, so to speak, before it rides in my pocket. I know I'm going to change them, so it's basically moot to me whether they're sharp out of the box or not. And even when they're not sharp out of the box, I don't fault the maker for this, as I suspect most people who really use their knives a lot will also put their own edges on new knives anyway. I sometimes wish the primary grinds on many knives were thinner to begin with; but even then, I also know that's just my own personal preference as a knife knut, and most casual users of knives won't notice it or care anyway.


David
 
I like new knives sharp out of the box,but not bothered about putting my own edge on.
 
StuntDouble said:
If I buy a saw, I don't expect to have to cut the teeth into the blade. With a knife, I expect it to at least have a usable edge. It doesn't have to pop hair, but it would be nice if the bevels at least met in the middle at an angle lower than 80 degrees.
Click to expand...

My sentiments too. A knife should arrive sharp, it's supposed to cut things cleanly! It shows the manufactured CAN be bothered too, pride in product. Moreover, if the knife arrives sharp then it is simple to maintain the edge. The odd idea that a knife should arrive blunt, or the various stories circulating that manufacturers intended to deliberately send out unsharpened knives as part of 'tradition' leave me cold. So too the idea that new blunt knives and sharpening are some kind of initiation ceremony to the mystique of Traditionals. Custom knives and Modern knives do not arrive blunt very often, and for good reason...
 
I'm not often satisfied with the factory edges from any manufacturer. I would much rather have a completely dull edge than a wavy edge from a belt grinder. And I hate when a belt grinder chewed up too much of the edge.

Victorinox is one of the few traditional manufacturers that puts a very even edge on their blades. I still find they can be improved with a touch up but the bevel is usually even along the edge. Buck has pretty wild edges. Case edges vary but usually have some waviness. As does Rough Riders. GEC barely touches the knives to a slow stone (that's fine with me though).

People's opinions on sharpness varies. I've seen GEC knives called shaving sharp but they are as dull as spoon to me. And to some extent, the type of edge will vary depending on it's use.

It would be interesting to compare the methods of Victorinox and Spyderco to companies like GEC and Queen and Case. My guess is that Victorinox and Spyderco use automated methods of sharpening but I'd need to check to make sure.
 
Since a knife is a cutting tool, I expect a new one to cut. Just makes sense to me.
If it can peel an apple it's OK by me. When the original edge is dulled I'll put my own on it.
 
A knife should cut paper out of the box. Personally, I think that the concept that a knife should "come from the manufacturer without final sharpening so the owner would apply the final edge tailored to the task at hand" was created by manufacturer's to excuse a poor edge. I don't think you should expect a razor's edge...unless it is a corn knife (foot corns not ears :)).
 
An anology...

Expensive bikes come with inexpensive peddles and saddles because the expectation is that the rider will immediately toss them in the trash and replace them with peddles and saddles of their own choosing.

I feel the same way about edges. I actually prefer the edge left more alone so I can remove metal and shape it to my preference.
 
supratentorial said:
People's opinions on sharpness varies. I've seen GEC knives called shaving sharp but they are as dull as spoon to me.
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I totally agree with this Jake. I have only bought a few knives new that were what I consider sharp. I have also bought knives off of the exchange that the seller has stated "razor sharp" that to me are very dull. I want a knife that I can lay against my arm and with very slight pressure slice through the hair without scraping dead skin off. To some this would be crazy sharp while some would only consider it a working edge. The other thing is I have COD with grinds. A wavy or any kind of uneven grind drives me nuts. If I can correct these problems with freehand sharpening why can't manufacturers get them right from the get go.
 
lutejones said:
Maybe the trend has changed with all the modern knives with super steels but for ages edged tools had come from the manufacturer without final sharpening so the owner would apply the final edge tailored to the task at hand.
Click to expand...

I've come across old unused Sheffield and German knives and they had great edges on them.

I think that a new knife should be sold sharp, but the evenness of the grind is more important to me, since I'm going to be sharpening it anyway.
 
I sharpen by hand and therefore a factory edge rarely matches the angle I put on a knife. If a knife comes to me at say 80% of its potential sharpness then I have to put a whole new edge on it too even touch it up that last 20%...

I came from modern super steels to traditionals a few years back so I have a lot of diamond sharpening stones. They make very quick work of 1095.
 
If the edge isn't usably sharp right out of the box, I'm disappointed in the manufacturer (whatever the reason they give). And I will probably never buy another knife from that company. After the factory edge dulls from use, then I'll work up my own edge on it. But the knife better come usably sharp to start with.
 
AreBeeBee said:
After the factory edge dulls from use, then I'll work up my own edge on it. But the knife better come usably sharp to start with.
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That's a good point. We are the small exception. "We" meaning knife collectors, enthusiasts, aficionados, whatever term you want to use. 90+% of the people are buying knives and using them as they are sold.

As in the OP's post, specifically referencing Case knives, most of their products are bought at hardware and auto parts stores by the guy that's there to grab a few supplies and figures he could use a new knife, and for $40, it's not a bad deal. However, if he gets it home and he can't use it right away to cut a brake hose or the straps holding together a bundle of fence posts, then I see that as more of a disappointment when compared to a collector or knife enthusiast who will automatically give it the edge they want.
 
AreBeeBee said:
If the edge isn't usably sharp right out of the box, I'm disappointed in the manufacturer (whatever the reason they give). And I will probably never buy another knife from that company. After the factory edge dulls from use, then I'll work up my own edge on it. But the knife better come usably sharp to start with.
Click to expand...

What company is left for you to buy from? :confused::D
 
Peregrin said:
Since a knife is a cutting tool, I expect a new one to cut. Just makes sense to me.
If it can peel an apple it's OK by me. When the original edge is dulled I'll put my own on it.
Click to expand...

Couldn't have said it any better :thumbup:
 
This is an interesting discussion. Thanks for getting it started, Mateo.

I accept the argument that some number of us, including me, are going to fine tune the edge to get the angle and level of refinement that we prefer for how we are going to use the knife. Heck, sometimes we'll even break out the files to get exactly what we're looking for. But, that does not give license to a factory to deliver an edge that is unsuitable for immediate general-purpose use.

In my opinion, the knife should arrive from the factory with a sharp edge that has a bevel angle and level of refinement that achieves a good compromise for the majority of users and their uses. I'm happy to tweak it from there, but I'd also like to take it from box to pocket and then come back and do that tweaking at my leisure. I think Victorinox does a good job of this with the SAKs that I've experienced.

The current state of things presents a conundrum for me as I consider giving a nice knife to a friend. Do I give it to him new-in-tube so that he can experience it in its pristine state, but knowing that he may not possess the skill and equipment required to give it an acceptable edge? Do I sharpen it for him so that he can use it upon receipt, but deny him the new-in-tube experience? I think the best solution may be to give it new-in-tube with an offer to immediately sharpen it if he'd like me to. But, I wish I didn't even have to have this mental debate with myself.
 
This has long been a pet peeve of mine. To me, a dull knife right out of the box is tantamount to an insult. The finished product should represent the absolute best the cutler can provide; if he can't present something that at
least cuts paper it is obvious he doesn't care much about my satisfaction as a customer.
Sadly, this phenomenon seems to affect all levels of brands and price points. Most of my small collection of GEC were butter knives when delivered, as was everything from Queen and S&M. My CRK large ClassicXX was a
disgrace; I would have sent it back were I not able to put achieve a proper edge myself. I've also had the occasional stick from Benchmade and Spyderco.
Most of my Case examples have been acceptable. My SanRenMu 710 (blasphemy) had a better edge then my first Sebbie; it popped hair like a razor and still does.
I only expect to get what I've paid for.
 
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