Sharpness out of the box, traditional knives please

I know no one really cares about one more internet opinion. But I wanted to have my vote heard.

I throw in with the old schoolers. Forget the initial edge. It ain't gonna be right anyway. And if it is too shallow you waste a bunch of blade height getting it back to something more suitable. A traditional isn't some new fangled tactical made out of 1/8 bar stock. It ain't that hard putting the edge on it.

To me (and I'm not criticizing anyone) the blade grind is far, far, far, FAR, more important. It takes some real work or machine shop access to alter. A grind that is too thick for your particular needs means the blade won't slice is well no matter how nice an edge you out on it.

I know most disgree but I just wanted to say that there is a very valid reason NOT to invest time and money on a nice edge. It isn't necessarily a sign of poor workmanship or lack of quality.

Will
 
Txjohn said:
"The American cutlery industry is a very pale shadow of what it used to be, not because it couldn't produce great cutlery. But because of failed business models and the greed of the owners not wanting to invest in newer and better machines when they come available. Case and Buck could equal Victorinox if they really wanted, but that would mean they would have to changer their operations a bit. And they won't do that."

I was under the impression that a lot of American cutlery companies could'nt survive due to the big box stores purchasing policies. Continuing to renegotiate contracts for lower prices until they couldn't make a profit . I'm sure there's greed involved , just not sure it's the cutlery companies .
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It was to some degree, it was, but the underlaying root cause was, they were incapable of producing the numbers needed to stay viable in todays market. They were incapable of prodding enough numbers to 'make it up on volume." Point in fact, Victorinox is still for sale in those big box stores, sometimes at lower prices than the brick and mortar stores. yet, Victorinox is not in the charity business, and is not giving those knives away for free.

When Leatherman came out, it hurt Victorinox greatly. They saw, for the first time, serious cutting in on their product turf. Their solution was unique. Carl Elsner and some of the high up's took a pay cut, some others had a pay freeze, and they took an unprecedented amount of money from the profits and invested in the absolute latest in high speed production machines. Spindle speeds of 20,000 RPM plus. The latest in commuter operations. A streamline of operations, among runs of particular models at a time instead of trying to produce too many at one time. The result is the Victorinox of today. Instead of making models a,b,c,d, e, f, and g at one time, they make models a, b, c, one run, then switch over to models d,e,f, for a while. A change of operations and the high speed new machines made the difference. Now Victorinox is still the worlds largest knife factory, the most automated knife factory, and sells millions and millions of SAK a year all over the globe. When times got tough, they changed, adapted to the new business conditions by changing their operations. Now they sell to both the big box stores and specialty shops like climbing and backpacking stores.

If Case ever did this, you'd be able to walk into a store, and buy a Case texas jack or stockman, or peanut, that would be as flawless as a new in box SAK. What's not to like about that? Just like you can't build a house without a good foundation, you can't build a product without precision made components. The better the component, the better the end product. That's how Victorinox does it. They make 'runs of the different blades/tools, put them in bins for future use in assembly. If Case did that, they'd rule the world in near flawless traditional pocket knives. They may have to streamline a bit, just like GM ditched Oldsmoble and Pontiac. Do a market survey to figure out just what is Case's most popular selling models. Maybe organize into small, medium and large frame sizes, with as many common blades as possible. Have the barlow use the same pen blade as the Texas jack. Things like that.
 
I prefer to put my own edge on my cutting tools, including my pocket knives, so a regular factory edge is fine with me.
 
I concede that Victorinox has been successful under this big box business model. I'm under the impression that the failied cutlery companies didnt fully appreciate the implications of signing contracts with the big box stores . In my limited understanding of this subject, Between the negotiating lower prices and 90 day pay schedule .they couldn't make it .Others have and that's fine but I prefer the way it was.
 
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Not quite sure what to post, but this thread seems a little derailed. Not that I'm not enjoying learning about some of the aspects of automation and so on, but trying to condense all the reasons why companies fail and go out of business is a rat's nest. Rarely is it as simple as one factor being the deciding issue.
I have to come down on the side of overall grind being more important than out of the box sharpness. I have a high dollar mid-tech in m390 that I'm going to have to get to someone who can reprofile it for me, because it was wonky out of the box, and by the time I figured that out it was too late to send it back because of my efforts to correct the issue. This was a modern , from a highly regarded boutique outfit, catering to the elite(some paraphrasing there). If the grind had been good from the beginning I could have dealt with it myself. Just an example. I also don't want to offend anyone with my comments. This is all very insightful stuff.
Thanks, Neal
 
I agree with you, Neal. For me, if the primary grind is properly done, it's a small task to put my own edge on. Besides the fact that I doubt I'd be satisfied with the edge out of box anyway, putting my own edge on is part of making it my own.
 
I don't know whether it's economically viable for those who maintain inventories, but perhaps a good compromise would be to offer a choice between sharpened and unsharpened—with a good primary grind for both, of course—and spend a little extra time getting the sharpened ones to a higher quality.
 
I got a vintage but completely unused Schrade Old Timer 180T that only saws paper. Should I not expect more because it is a cheap line of knives? Victorinox, Moras, and Opinels have all come with better edges.

It is just pure BS if a name brand (not Paki/Chinese) knife doesn't slice paper straight out of the box. I will accept not hair shaving sharp but not saw through paper dull. Nor should you accept it.

Car dealer, "The tires are crap cause we know you are going to upgrade them...the break pads are crap too..." No, no, no.
 
Getting back to the original subject ... :-)

For me it is more importend that a blade is well (thin!) ground than that it is super sharp out of the box. Sharpness (or rather dullness) is easier to fix than a thick grind. But as price goes up, so does my expectation of both the out-of-the-box geometry and sharpness.
 
Thin to win, I agree, especially on a pocket knife for sure, as most are meant to cut. When I get one that has a very acute edge bevel applied and the blade continues to grow thicker behind it, I sigh...as I know I will have a lot of work ahead to make this a good performing cutter OR sell it off and be done with it, usually the latter.

Out of the box sharpness in traditionals, I've not been very impressed by anyones to date, but as a lot have stated, you then get the opportunity to apply 'your' edge bevels onto the knife, which in the end you will have to maintain anyways.

For those that have trouble or can't get those initial bevels to a level they can just maintain, there are several guys out there that are sharpening geniuses that can get you a razor edge and once on there, I think you could maintain that yourself, or worse case send back for a refresh.

Here's a shot of Bill of GEC putting an edge on his son...Bill's...knife

IMG_1684.jpg~original


IMG_1685.jpg~original


very nice work he did as well :)
G2
 
I have never bought a GEC or WRCase knife that was not very sharp right out of the box. These 2 companies in my experience provide very sharp knives.


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I sharpen every knife I buy, pretty much as soon as I get it. And I don't have a problem with that if all I am doing is fussing with it a bit. A couple of minutes on the Sharpmaker and it's ready to go.

Like Gary Graley, I do have a problem if I have to make a major change to the edge bevel or thin out the blade behind the edge. That's a lot of work. I know it is a lot of work because I have done it to a number of knives (mostly Queen knives).
 
Being disappointed in the sharpness of a factory knife (and accepting it) is so common it's become the norm. I wouldn't compare Victorinox's automated sharpening to any other knife company...they make many millions of knives a year making it very cost effective for them. But, if a small company like Marttiini can put a fabulous edge on a knife, by hand, any other can as well. When the consumer doesn't require excellence, the manufacturer won't provide it.
 
JB I strongly agree with you, it's kind of lazy or disrespectful to send out a poorly edged knife new. A cutler's business is making knives, correspondingly they should be able to deliver it in a sharp state. You don't get in a taxi-cab and expect to find out the driver doesn't yet know how to drive:eek::D:grumpy: Interesting you should cite Marttiini, they're very much the bread&butter everyday puukko here, no frills but they certainly will shave arm hair with ease.
 
Will Power said:
JB I strongly agree with you, it's kind of lazy or disrespectful to send out a poorly edged knife new. A cutler's business is making knives, correspondingly they should be able to deliver it in a sharp state. You don't get in a taxi-cab and expect to find out the driver doesn't yet know how to drive:eek::D:grumpy: Interesting you should cite Marttiini, they're very much the bread&butter everyday puukko here, no frills but they certainly will shave arm hair with ease.
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My experience with Marttiini goes back over forty years, when Rapala began importing their fillet knives. My Arctic carver ($45) amazes me with it's craftsmanship and edge.
 
I haven't seen a Marttiini or Rapala knife in many years... and don't recall seeing one posted on the forum. But they are two of the last brands that would come to mind when I think about a good edge. Haha! I've only seen their $10-20 fillet knives though.... and from many years ago. I take it that things have changed.
 
Most non knife people don't expect hair popping sharp out of the box, that being said I prefer it. When I get a knife that isn't hair popping sharp out of the box it isn't a big deal I just spend 5min on the stones and get it there.

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jackknife said:
This is why Schrade and Camillus is no longer with us. Old machines and failure to modernize is a death knell to any business. The best knives in the world used to come out of Sheffield, but lack of modernization killed the industry. Victorinox is the most automated knife factory in the world. And they do periodically update and phase in new higher speed machinery to keep up the pace and overall quality. The second most automated knife factory is Opinel, of France. You won't find any any uni yes being made on the same machines there as a generation ago. Yet Opinel turns out more knives per year than Buck and Case combined.

The image of pocketknives being built by hand by dedicated craftsmen is an image of the past, just as the image of the gunsmith making guns by hand. Glock spits out guns by the thousands with a QA level that has let them takeover 80% of the police market. When Schrade closed their doors and the old equipment was carried out the door, those old lathes and drill presses that were worn out junk was a lesson in economics. If you don't modernize, you'll die. In this day of machine operations, theres really no excuse for uneven blade grinds or dull edges on a new knife.
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Takes the romanticism out of knife making, but I agree. If those old cutlers had the machines available today, they'd take advantage of it. I wish Camillus and Schrade had.

The small factories like GEC and Queen still have a niche today though.
 
jackknife said:
It was to some degree, it was, but the underlaying root cause was, they were incapable of producing the numbers needed to stay viable in todays market. They were incapable of prodding enough numbers to 'make it up on volume." Point in fact, Victorinox is still for sale in those big box stores, sometimes at lower prices than the brick and mortar stores. yet, Victorinox is not in the charity business, and is not giving those knives away for free.

When Leatherman came out, it hurt Victorinox greatly. They saw, for the first time, serious cutting in on their product turf. Their solution was unique. Carl Elsner and some of the high up's took a pay cut, some others had a pay freeze, and they took an unprecedented amount of money from the profits and invested in the absolute latest in high speed production machines. Spindle speeds of 20,000 RPM plus. The latest in commuter operations. A streamline of operations, among runs of particular models at a time instead of trying to produce too many at one time. The result is the Victorinox of today. Instead of making models a,b,c,d, e, f, and g at one time, they make models a, b, c, one run, then switch over to models d,e,f, for a while. A change of operations and the high speed new machines made the difference. Now Victorinox is still the worlds largest knife factory, the most automated knife factory, and sells millions and millions of SAK a year all over the globe. When times got tough, they changed, adapted to the new business conditions by changing their operations. Now they sell to both the big box stores and specialty shops like climbing and backpacking stores.

If Case ever did this, you'd be able to walk into a store, and buy a Case texas jack or stockman, or peanut, that would be as flawless as a new in box SAK. What's not to like about that? Just like you can't build a house without a good foundation, you can't build a product without precision made components. The better the component, the better the end product. That's how Victorinox does it. They make 'runs of the different blades/tools, put them in bins for future use in assembly. If Case did that, they'd rule the world in near flawless traditional pocket knives. They may have to streamline a bit, just like GM ditched Oldsmoble and Pontiac. Do a market survey to figure out just what is Case's most popular selling models. Maybe organize into small, medium and large frame sizes, with as many common blades as possible. Have the barlow use the same pen blade as the Texas jack. Things like that.
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As the young people say, "That's too much like right" my friend. If I was Case, I'd take some of that $ and invest in the future. No X-whatever one hand opener runs made in China. But, the collectors out there go nuts over all kinds of different patterns and handle materials, and in the display case they go (nothing wrong with that). I hope that Case and Buck stick around, as well as Boker, GEC, Queen and Utica, oh yeah, Colonial too. Did I miss anyone :D?
 
Lesbaer1911 said:
Most non knife people don't expect hair popping sharp out of the box, that being said I prefer it.
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I'd disagree with this. Before I got into knives the sharpness from the factory was one of the main criteria for determining the quality of a knife for me. As recently as this summer I had somebody tell me that Spyderco made great knives because they come so sharp. Take your average joe and give him a $100 modern knife and a $100 slipjoint and ask him which is the better knife and I'd bet most would say the modern because it's sharper than the slipjoint. I think it's us knife folks that have learned to make excuses for our favorite companies not being able to master this simplest of cutlery skills. Your average person doesn't want to hear about routine maintenance or how easy it is to sharpen a knife. They just want a sharp knife from the get-go.
 
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