Sharpness out of the box, traditional knives please

[afishhunter]

What company is left for you to buy from?

Buck, Rough Rider, Colt, Marbles, Schrade/Imperial ...

EDIT: Almost forgot SAK and Opinel

 

[supratentorial]

Buck, Rough Rider, Colt, Marbles, Schrade/Imperial ...

I've gotten dull knives from all of those companies... except the foreign made Schrade/Imperial since I've never owned one of those knives. I assume you meant the foreign made knives since you often post about them.

Every company has it's hits and misses. I know you are a fan of the foreign made knives but the edges can be wild and variable. One of the worst edges that I've ever gotten from any company was from Rough Rider. On a RR whittler, the front half of one blade was sharpened on both sides. The back half was not sharpened at all.

The worst that I've gotten was from Bear and Son-- it was an unsharpened blank.

 

[silenthunterstudios]

I am lazy and have only gotten somewhat good at putting edges on carbon and some tool steels. Maintaining an edge is the biggest obstacle, as I have gotten into customs with CPM steels. Part of the reason why I like traditional slipjoints are the grinds. No more sharpened prybars, and I'm lumping some of the full flat ground blades into that. I prefer a convex edge with a flat grind on my fixed blades. I've mainly stuck with custom knives this year, but my Queen made Tuna Valley scout came with a pretty good edge. I have had to maintain it through use, obviously, but it's much better than the brand new Queens (when they were owned by another company).

I believe Carl said this, and I will paraphrase here, that if Victorinox can put a reasonably good/workable edge on almost every knife blade they produce, why can't Case? Queen? Boker? Great Eastern? Buck? I have seen drastic improvements from all companies I mentioned. Some GEC knives had no edge, Queen's edges were "all jacked up" to use the phrase. When I was a kid I had a Boker metal frame with a spaniel on the side, and it was laser sharp. I cut myself more than once on it (I was a little kid, maybe 7 or 8). I love Buck designs, but not their grinds, just personal preference. Case, with the highest production numbers, needs improvement. They seem to pay attention to their Case Bose line the most (CV and SS). With the 154CM annual line, you are paying not only for a design but near custom fit and finish, which I have received, except for a somewhat "wonky" edge on my coffin jack which was taken care of by a local knife shop.

Asking for a near custom lightsaber edge, or a Spyderco/Chris Reeve etc. straight from the factory edge may be a bit too much. Especially on some of the smaller knives, we're not talking about a lot of meat on these traditional blades, compared to more modern designs. These knives are not "high speed, low drag" to coin the tongue in cheek phrase. We need to remember that we're only slicing cheese/sausage/apple, maybe an alternative task than we would put a frame lock or fixed blade through.

As I hone my skills, pun intended, I have learned that I want a different grind/edge on my slipjoints, Sebenzas and fixed blades, even from my Kepharts to my Hudson Bay camp knives. But brand new from the factory I would appreciate a good edge that I can either change or maintain.

 

[CARRERA50]

I've gotten dull knives from all of those companies... except the foreign made Schrade/Imperial since I've never owned one of those knives. I assume you meant the foreign made knives since you often post about them.

Every company has it's hits and misses. I know you are a fan of the foreign made knives but the edges can be wild and variable. One of the worst edges that I've ever gotten from any company was from Rough Rider. On a RR whittler, the front half of one blade was sharpened on both sides. The back half was not sharpened at all.

The worst that I've gotten was from Bear and Son-- it was an unsharpened blank.

As you rightly say, every company has hits and misses. I guess I'm the most disappointed in traditional US manufacturers who trade heavily on reputation and, in my experience, simply don't deliver a product that
lives up to my expectations.

 

[supratentorial]

I believe Carl said this, and I will paraphrase here, that if Victorinox can put a reasonably good/workable edge on almost every knife blade they produce, why can't Case? Queen? Boker? Great Eastern? Buck?

I mentioned this earlier but I suspect that Victorinox uses an automated process now. I'd need to check to make sure but it's WAY too consistent to be done by hand. Case, Queen and GEC sharpen manually. I'm not sure about Buck.

 

[Peregrin]

Let's keep this to the discussion of traditional knives please. I'm going to edit the title to reflect that.

 

[TheChunk91]

I sharpen all my knives after I get them anyways so sharpness doesn't really matter, what I care about is whether the bevel is ground relatively evenly and not ridiculously steep cause those are what effect how quickly and easily I can put my own edge on it to my liking. I do think they should come sharp enough to cleanly slice phone book paper, it's not hard at all to achieve that and when you are putting the kind of care and hand craftsmanship that goes into these kinds of knives then the edge (the most important aspect!) should have the same care and quality put into it.

 

[HeathH]

Generally speaking, I would prefer a knife I can actually cut with when I receive it - it's always disappointing to get a new knife that is not sharp... kind of like giving a kid a Christmas present that requires batteries, but not including the batteries

That said, I have become accustomed to having to sharpen my own knives from most manufacturers, and given the level of attention they put into it, I don't mind. I received what I assume is a new old stock "end of days" Schrade where the edge showed signs of heat discoloration. It took probably 10 "major" sharpenings to get to steel that would hold an edge, because the damage done by overheating the edge while sharpening at the factory. One of the Opinels I received had a similar heat treat damage due to poor sharpening. If manufactureres can't take the time to do it well, they shouldn't do it at all.

My biggest pet peeve though, are knives left with very thick primary grinds. I've gotten a couple of Case knives that looked like they hadn't been ground on one side (or both), leaving them super thick behind the cutting edge. My first, and likely last, Queen was this way on both blades. I've had to lay them flat on a piece of sandpaper to draw the edges back down to a usable thickness. There is no way I should have to spend an hour on my knife with 220 grit sandpaper to make it an efficient cutter. This is where I really appreciate GEC. I don't have that many, but they're all ground nice and thin behind the cutting edge!

 

[brownshoe]

...The current state of things presents a conundrum for me as I consider giving a nice knife to a friend. Do I give it to him new-in-tube so that he can experience it in its pristine state, but knowing that he may not possess the skill and equipment required to give it an acceptable edge? Do I sharpen it for him so that he can use it upon receipt, but deny him the new-in-tube experience? I think the best solution may be to give it new-in-tube with an offer to immediately sharpen it if he'd like me to. But, I wish I didn't even have to have this mental debate with myself.

I know what you mean. I don't buy knives in clam-pack, since I always check the edge on a knife I give as a present. If it's not a razor sharp edge, I sharpen it myself. I usually give Case or Buck traditional knives and they've all been received sharp, and I just needed a little touch up to make it razor.

If I gave someone a dull knife, it'd ruin my reputation

 

[lutejones]

Thanks for all the responses guys.
With edge tools I was referring of woodworking tools in addition to knives, following the example of StuntDouble you would expect a saw to have the teeth cut but and pristinely shaped but the rest of the angles got filed by the owner for more aggressive or less, same with chisels and planes they should be well grinded but the crisp edge was given by the final user.
Coming back to knives I feel the same way and wish the manufacturers would put more work on the grinds being a lot less o a concern to me the actual cutting edge which can be reshaped in a matter of minutes instead of the hour or so to thin the primary grind

P.S. Thanks for the editing of the title, Gary

 

[AreBeeBee]

What company is left for you to buy from?

Buck, Rough Rider, Colt, Marbles, Schrade/Imperial ...

I've gotten dull knives from all of those companies...

Sorry for the quote-stack. Almost every mass production knife I have bought has come with what I call a usable edge. It's sharp enough to cut cardboard, shave wood, cut carrots, apples, various things.

I know perfectly well that most of these knives don't have the sharpest edges or the best profile for some job or other. The point is they cut right out of the box, as I said.

If I got a turkey — for example, like that !!%#&!@#!@!! machete sold by a local outdoor store — then I'd never buy that again, as it'll require an hour-plus with a file to put an edge on it. (No belt sander, no grinder, no power tools at all for me, except a drill and a circular saw.) I don't mind doing that with a flea market item, for example the fine 1930s-40s Bridgeport hatchet I got for $5 that had an edge so blunt that it simply dented wood when used. (Now it cuts nice!)

So to explain once more, if something I've ordered online comes in with an unusable edge, I'll never buy that brand again. If you're one of those whose knife interest revolves around getting the finest, sharpest, most-perfect-shaped edge — great for you. For me a knife is a utilitarian cutting tool, first (and last) of all.

(Oh, and Rough Riders come with quite good edges in my experience of about a dozen of them.)

 

[Will Power]

The numerous Opinels I've had have all arrived very sharp indeed, carbon or stainless, one reason they're valued as superb slicers. And they strop back very satisfyingly too.

 

[Ramrodmb]

Buck, Rough Rider, Colt, Marbles, Schrade/Imperial ...

lol... This is a good example of how peoples opinions and expectations differ wildly.
The GECs I've received recently have been much sharper out of the box (tube). It just depends how you rate it. "Very sharp" to one person might be just "decent useable" for another.

 

[pmew]

Since a knife is a cutting tool, I expect a new one to cut. Just makes sense to me.
If it can peel an apple it's OK by me. When the original edge is dulled I'll put my own on it.

This is my opinion too...

I think that a new knife should be sold sharp, but the evenness of the grind is more important to me, since I'm going to be sharpening it anyway.

...also true for me, I'm always a little disappointed with a brand new knife that arrives dull but it doesn't enrage me like it does some people...

The numerous Opinels I've had have all arrived very sharp indeed, carbon or stainless, one reason they're valued as superb slicers. And they strop back very satisfyingly too.

...absolutely love opinels for this reason. Cheap, can get them just about anywhere and they can go to work straight away.

 

[supratentorial]

AreBeeBee, The smilies were supposed to indicate that my reply was intended to be in good fun. But you're probably right that we have different opinions based on what you've said. I disagree that I demand the "the finest, sharpest, most-perfect-shaped edge". I wouldn't recommend using a file to sharpen knives. You might try wet/dry sandpaper if you don't have appropriate stones. I don't use power tools to sharpen pocket knives. Every company makes mistakes and I've bought enough knives to get some from just about everyone. So if I were to have a one strike limit, I'd have to stop buying from a lot of companies.

I agree with what the OP said about the primary grinds. I'm MUCH more interested in getting a good primary grind (a lot of traditional knives have full flat grinds so that's the entire surface of the blade, not the edge). I'll put an edge on my knife anyway.

Ideally they'd come sharp. But I've bought enough knives not to expect it. Companies may need to switch to an automated process like Victorinox to get extremely consistent results.

 

[jc57]

My experiences (if I recall correctly):

- Case SS knives tend to come with somewhat coarse grinds and a lingering burr on the edges. Need burr removal and stropping before ready for use. Some just need stropping. Bevels are not always even from side to side but are usually apexed.

- Case CV knives don't have quite as pronounced of a burr, and sometimes seem to have a bit less coarse of an edge. Often just need stropping to be ready to go. Most can still be improved on.

- Rough Rider (I only have two examples to base this on) - Very sharp right out of the box, didn't need a thing. Even bevels, good edge angle. I was quite surprised.

- Taylor Schrade (1 example) sharp and burr free out of the box. Blade grind a bit thick, but good bevels with a decent angle. Pocket ready.

- GEC knives. Burr free. Almost invisible edge bevel. Seem to be a bit more obtuse of a grind than I like. Sometimes have a flat spot where not fully apexed. Some are pocket ready, most benefit from sharpening first.

- Queen knives - (3 examples) One (a stockman pattern) had great edges out of the box, all three blades, ready to go. Flawless knife, in fact. One (Country Cousin) - thick blade stock, sharp but needed work. Third, the small serpentine jack - main blade not fully apexed, blade stock thick behind the bevel. Took a lot of work with that D2 to get it thinned and beveled.

- Buck - (2 examples) Good working edge out of the box. Semi-coarse grind but burr free. Thick behind the edge so benefitted from thinning. Sharp enough out of the box for use.

Every modern knife I have purchased recently has exceeded most of the traditionals as far as factory sharpness goes. Since this isn't the place for it I won't go into details.

 

[supratentorial]

Here's the half ground edge on the RR that I mentioned

 

[Ernie1980]

I have yet to buy a traditional knife that had an acceptable edge out of the box, with the exception being several SAKs. However, I love to sharpen so it might just be me!! In my mind, putting your own edge on a knife truly makes it yours

 

[AreBeeBee]

AreBeeBee, The smilies were supposed to indicate that my reply was intended to be in good fun. But you're probably right that we have different opinions based on what you've said. I disagree that I demand the "the finest, sharpest, most-perfect-shaped edge". I wouldn't recommend using a file to sharpen knives. You might try wet/dry sandpaper if you don't have appropriate stones. I don't use power tools to sharpen pocket knives. Every company makes mistakes and I've bought enough knives to get some from just about everyone. So if I were to have a one strike limit, I'd have to stop buying from a lot of companies.

I agree with what the OP said about the primary grinds. I'm MUCH more interested in getting a good primary grind (a lot of traditional knives have full flat grinds so that's the entire surface of the blade, not the edge). I'll put an edge on my knife anyway.

Ideally they'd come sharp. But I've bought enough knives not to expect it. Companies may need to switch to an automated process like Victorinox to get extremely consistent results.

Fair enough! And I agree that companies should automate the edge grinding, if only for consistency. No, I'd never use a file on a knife -- that's for machetes, hatchets, axes in the worst cases. Diamond works fine to make good edges on everything else.

My point is that I'm by no means concerned with fine sharpening, just getting a usable edge — and my definition of usable isn't terrifically high.

 

[blademan 13]

I sharpen all my knives after I get them anyways so sharpness doesn't really matter, what I care about is whether the bevel is ground relatively evenly and not ridiculously steep cause those are what effect how quickly and easily I can put my own edge on it to my liking. I do think they should come sharp enough to cleanly slice phone book paper, it's not hard at all to achieve that and when you are putting the kind of care and hand craftsmanship that goes into these kinds of knives then the edge (the most important aspect!) should have the same care and quality put into it.

This:thumbup: This is the one area where I feel every tradititional manufacturer has room for improvement. Let's start with a nice, even primary grind taken down to .010" or so. Add a 30-40 degree edge capable of slicing paper. Done.

The manufacturer looks good. Joe Public buying the knife will be happy with the cutting ability as would a large percentage of knife groupies. Anyone wishing to tweak the edge to their own liking will be thrilled with the ease at which this can be accomplished. This should be the minimum level accepted.

Personally, bring on the "near zero" edge from the Golden Era. Need examples, peruse the current Maher & Grosh thread :thumbup: